03-10-2003 19:25									#31
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I'd guess about 16. The righteous rage he works himself into screams teenager.

I'd discuss this with you, PC, but I can tell from past posts and this thread again that you have no real interest in discussing what I have to say. Like I said, you're obviously in this for a big pile-on-the-US-fest, and I very much doubt you're willing to even consider the things I would say. So, in short, **** it.

-Arrian

	03-10-2003 19:36									#32
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His profile says he's 29 though his debate style is not very well developed.

	03-10-2003 19:37									#33
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I can vouch for the authenticity of his age.

	03-10-2003 19:38									#34
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infatuated with myself?

you think oil-power is pure-power? really? interesting. especially when it's not. oil is a resource used to influence, but it is not pure power. oil is critical for many things, but pure power lies with a coupling of financial and military might, neither of which is entirely dependent on petroleum--nor are they dependent on merely arabian oil.

	03-10-2003 19:40									#35
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Is there anyone in the Bush cabinet who hasn't worked in the Oil industry?

The US military could not function without petroleum

	03-10-2003 19:42									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin now it's sad when the left mindlessly does the same to Bush.

The key difference is that Bush actually is a witch.

	03-10-2003 19:42									#37
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(nor could any modern military)

	03-10-2003 19:46									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Azazel: I think deep down they know that, but, they so hate Bush and company that they will ignore the facts. I find it sad. It was sad when the right went on a witch hunt for Clinton and now it's sad when the left mindlessly does the same to Bush.

So your argument is that people have been stealing/murdering for thousands of years - therefore it's pointless to say that stealing/murdering is wrong?

It shouldn't be anything to do with Left or Right. If governments do stuff wrong everyone should get at them, no matter what party you were forced to vote for because it's policies were the least repellent.

	03-10-2003 19:46									#39
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The key difference is that Bush actually is a witch.

What we really need to test this is a set of very large scales and a duck.

	03-10-2003 19:46									#40
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i realize that. but we're not depended on arabian oil.

going to iraq over oil is an amazingly shallow reductionist view of the entire sordid affair.

	03-10-2003 19:46									#41
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If you can corner the market on oil, you can control those who need it. If the US has its hand on it's competitor's oil spigit, that gives it power over it's rival's economies.

	03-10-2003 19:48									#42
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If oil equals pure power then why are nearly all of the major oil producing countries so powerless? :hmm:

	03-10-2003 19:50									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed we're not depended on arabian oil.

No we're not, but like Che said, some of our 'enemies' certainly are.

	03-10-2003 19:50									#44
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH So your argument is that people have been stealing/murdering for thousands of years - therefore it's pointless to say that stealing/murdering is wrong?

I didn't say that Azazel did.

	03-10-2003 19:50									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If oil equals pure power then why are nearly all of the major oil producing countries so powerless? :hmm:

Yeah! Like Canada!

	03-10-2003 19:51									#46
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the reason why oil is not pure power is because it is a resource that can be manipulated.

sure, opec can raise prices. the truly powerful nations can afford those prices, and then go in and clean their clocks to force them to lower the prices.

having natural resources does not make you a natural power, otherwise we'd all bowing under a bantu superpower irl as opposed to in civ.

	03-10-2003 19:51									#47
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Because their governments are kept as compliant dictatorships that allow oil to be extracted by western companies. Just like the US will install in Iraq and just as it used to support Saddam.

Dictator stops cooperating? Get a new one who'll be more compliant. Simple.

	03-10-2003 19:53									#48
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If you can corner the market on oil, you can control those who need it. If the US has its hand on it's competitor's oil spigit, that gives it power over it's rival's economies.

If you include the US's production with Iraqs production I'd bet it wouldn't even equal 20% of the world market (does anyone have figures?). That still leaves 80% of the world's oil supplies out there so you cannot really claim the US has cornered the market.

	03-10-2003 19:53									#49
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quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet Yeah! Like Canada!

Canada is a very good example of that. Thier military is so sad they are starting to rely on mercenaries.

	03-10-2003 19:55									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I didn't say that Azazel did.

Oh yeah, sorry.

	03-10-2003 19:56									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If oil equals pure power then why are nearly all of the major oil producing countries so powerless? :hmm:

Because they have dipshit governments, or, in the case of the ME, are delibeately kept fragmented so as not to have any market power. Do you think the West would have reacted any differently if a democratic Iraq tried to annex Kuwait?

	03-10-2003 19:58									#52
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quote: Originally posted by The Andy-Man greens in general who think that it 'all about oil'.

Not all of us. I think oil comes into it, but as mentioned by others, it cannot be the main reason, due to the amount of money the war cost, the disruption war would cause, and the relative importance of Iraqi oil. It was a factor, but probably a relatively small one.

	03-10-2003 20:03									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If oil equals pure power then why are nearly all of the major oil producing countries so powerless? :hmm:

Powerless? When OPED gave the world the squeeze last time, the US went into "stagflation", and Japanese car companies ran roughshed over Detroit.

I wouldn't say that's powerless.

	03-10-2003 20:08									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin That still leaves 80% of the world's oil supplies out there so you cannot really claim the US has cornered the market.

This is true, but 20% is still a lot of market power. Considering the leverage that the US has with places like Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, etc, it adds up quickly.

It's possible the U.S. took out Iraq in order to get Iraqi oil flowing again, since Hussein showed no signs of complying with the UN anytime soon. WIth Iraqi production back online, oil prices drop, and everything that depends on oil prices drops, and the world's economy perks up.

The point, ultimately, is that oil was an important factor. Unlike pc, I do not think it was the primary factor, however. Honestly, I think the primary reason for the invasion, though, was to distract attention from the corporate scandals in the US and Bush's personal role. Things were looking pretty rough for the Pres 14 months ago, and as soon as they said Iraq, all that was off the front pages, the Dem's rolled over and pissed on themselves, and the Repugs took both houses of Congress.

	03-10-2003 20:13									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Powerless? When OPED gave the world the squeeze last time, the US went into "stagflation", and Japanese car companies ran roughshed over Detroit. I wouldn't say that's powerless.

The point is the Arabs never tried that again because they lot 80% of their economic output while they embargoed us. Add on that the US created the Stategic Petroleum Reserve (the world's largest stock pile of oil) since then and you can see why they have very little leverage. Supposedly with the SPR the US can opporate without rations and without importing any oil for 6-9 months. Now add on that the vast majority of our oil imports come from Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela and you can see why the Arabs are really in a powerless position.

	03-10-2003 20:33									#56
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Yeah but if the Mid East stops producing then everyone will be after those other supplies and the price will go up for everyone including the US.

	03-10-2003 20:37									#57
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The mid-east should proclaim the holiday year, and stop the work and focus on religion with governments giving free food for the year to everyone. Just to keep the utilities working but stop all governemtn businesses apart from maintainance...

It would be interesting to see would we invade Saudis and Iran to take their evil-dictatorships doown too and to free the people

	03-10-2003 20:49									#58
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technically the saudis are a monarchy.

	03-10-2003 20:54									#59
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According to the World Oil magazine and the Oil and Gas Journal, cited by the The Energy Information Administration (EIA), as of Jan. 1 2002, ~ 65% of the world's oil reserves were in the Middle East.

The figures:

World total crude oil reserves: 1018 - 1032 billion barrels

Saudi Arabia: 261 - 262 billion barrels
Iraq: 112 - 115
Kuwait: 96 - 99
Iran: 90 - 99
UAE: 62 - 97 (? quite a disparity here between the two estimates)

Other big oil rezerves are in Venezuela and Russia (~ 50 - 70 billion barrels)

Now, why would all the big powers be interested in the ME is not for all that oil? Call me an ignorant, or childish or whatever, but give me a better reason first. Why is the US soooo interested in the ME, especially in the oil rich countries?

The world 3 biggest oil reserves are controlled now by the US (directly or indirectly); they have quite a military presence in all 3 countries. Coincidence? I don't think so.

Btw, did anyone notice that Iran has the 4th biggest oil reserve in the world? Apparently they are developing WOMD, plus harboring terrorists, too

	03-10-2003 20:55									#60
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Yeah but if the Mid East stops producing then everyone will be after those other supplies and the price will go up for everyone including the US.

True, but the whole point is these guys are't stupid enough to kill off 80% of there GNP. They would be hurt far, far more plus the US can just keep releasing SPR supplies to flood the market for half a year. Six months of no income should be enough to break any Arab embargo since they're all deeply in debt any way.