04-10-2003 08:12									#1
	AU210 - UN Peacekeepers DAR 4 – End of middle ages Suffering from ads?

Use this space to comment on your game in the interval between the end of DAR 3 and the end of the middle ages.

	05-10-2003 13:36									#2
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It's 410AD. In my game, wars are going on since early, even big gangbangs, and never ever stopped entirely. For literally the whole game I had the armies of all other civs at my territory. I had nearly all of the big battles going on right next to my un- or at most weakly defended cities. Screw it, I was building my economy and don't need no stynkin' military. For most of the time, I had 1 horseman, 3 or 4 swordsmen (3 of them regular), 1 archer and 1 lone catapult, that's all my mobile force. And a spearman in each border city, that's all of it. Never got involved in any conflict, neither did I attack anyone. I started to build more forces later, so that I'm now average to the most.

I have 3 peace clients, the Spaniards (being at war almost since 4000bc and never had peace), the Indians (waring to much themselves, bloodthirsty Gandhi ! and losing) and the Iroquois (ditto). All 3 are my neighbors, how convenient.

The first action of my peacekeepers. The indians losing their self declared war against the Mongols. 2 American knights (whoever that is, may be John Wayne ) blocking the entry of mongolian reinforcements to the indian peninsula. The Mongols already took Madras and later Calcutta. Since their reinforcements dried out, they lost Calcutta again. Madras flipped back centuries later, when they were already at peace.

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	05-10-2003 13:46									#3
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Here's the second, 850AD. The Spaniards made peace with all their enemies except Japan. In fact, that's the only war going on right now. Here you see the American peacekeepers again. Note, that not only our military, but also our civilians are involved in peacekeeping. Note the large stack of potential human shields north of Oakland, ready to intervene. Among them are even volunteers from other countries.

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	06-10-2003 03:10									#4
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The year is now 620 AD, and America just led the world into the industrial era. The middle ages were not as quiet as might have been desired. Bismarck finally figured out that he would never get anywhere declaring war on America and then making peace before his troops finished their long journey to attack, so he sent a strike force to Richmond, a city founded north of America's core to gain access to some silks. A rush-built musket unit proved insufficient help for the valiant band of warriors defending the city even though Bismarck's finest (at least among those involved in the attack) were a horse unit and some archers.

Rather than get dragged into a war it was ill-equipped (indeed, almost completely unequipped) to fight, America offered technology in exchange for assistance from the Spanish, Indians, and Ottomans. Since foreign cities (including a remote Mongol one) were in between Germany and the rest of America, that allowed America to continue in builder mode. India and the Ottomans eventually made peace, but Spain and Germany have not managed to come to terms yet. If the war goes on much longer, America may find itself forced to intervene on Spain's behalf whether it wants to or not.

America has managed to gain and hold a small technological advantage thorugh most of the middle ages, typically two or three techs. Selling technology has brought in a few badly needed luxuries and enough gold to support the nation's scientists with considerable amounts left over for rush building projects in outlying areas. As of the end of the era, America has all eight luxries and is netting 454 gpt from other civs. America's tech lead over its most advanced rivals is down to just Theory of Gravity and Economics, but most of the important deals are newly made so there will be some time to rebuild the advantage and try to fend off the Scientific civs. Steam power is scheduled for completion in six turns. America recently completed Magellan's Voyage and hopes to trigger a golden age with the Hoover Dam when the time comes.

A few cities have finally started building troops so America won't be quite as nearly completely undefended as it has been. But the American military is still paper thin, and will probably stay thin until railroads and factories change the production dynamics.

There is one other point of possible interest: because income from foreign nations has made it possible to keep my science rate sky high, and because my civ is small enough that it generally needs the highest science slider setting it can get, I've had little interest in building banks. That may get me in trouble if most of my foreign income disappears, but it works fine for now.

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Last edited by nbarclay on 06-10-2003 at 03:15

	06-10-2003 04:15									#5
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By the way, I'm down to eighth in land area. That could make things both interesting and unpleasant when Sanitation becomes available, an event which I prefer to see delayed as long as possible.

	06-10-2003 07:29									#6
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I'm afraid I have to report failure in my mission. For some reason, Spain never made peace with Germany even though they were losing cities. I couldn't talk the Indians and Ottomans into allying with me to stop Germany; at least without taking the plunge and declaring war on Germany first without assurances of help. Worse, Japanese forces were traveling through my territory trying to get to the Ottomans, so I couldn't send my forces up to the German front without leaving the Japanese front exposed. And as if that weren't enough, when the Spanish were down to two cities (both away from their original core) and I was considering giving them one of mine to keep them alive, the Mongols declared war on them. That left me with the prospect of a two-front war while a third nation's troops were running through my territory. Nor was the timing good for a defensive war: Germany had cavalry, and Nationalism hadn't been discovered yet. With that much against me, I decided saving Spain wasn't worth it.

I suppose I brought the situation on myself by forming the original alliance against Germany, but normally, wars created through such alliances evaporate quickly once the alliance is over (if not before). This one kept going for about 30 turns after the alliance was over, about 50 total, giving Germany time to finish off Spain in spite of the fact that Spain wasn't especially weak when the war started.

Nathan

	07-10-2003 05:30									#7
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Well, Nathan's last post certainly has thrown a scare into me... as you'll see, I may have put myself in the same position re Germany.

If you followed by last posts in the previous block thread, the Mongols had just gone hog wild (without my help1).

Around 700 AD, most of their wars had settled down, with some minor damage to India and Spain.

I had been the PERFECT Peacenik (MS would be proud)... I was at polite or gracious with all AI civs, having huddled to my oh-so-tight spacing and builder ways (well, not as builderish as SR and Nathan... but I'm me, haha).

So anyway, I my sneaky move with Minneapolis (in the previous block thread)... felt like I was playing Go to capture Kolhapur!

And guess who shows up?

Anyone?

You there, in the hood!!

You, the stringy alien fellow!!

You, with the crazy friggin' eyes!!

How about you on the horse??

What? A German barmaid holding a ridiculous amout of beer knows the answer?

Bizzie-friggin'-marckie (he's the only leader she actually knew the name of... ).

AND, if you remember, I had even gifted the Germans a town way in the SE (which the Babs have now razed).

And the attackers are???? 3 Horsies.

Schmuck. Double schmuck. Classic mistake... never engage Theseus in a land war.

I've taken a huge risk here, much like Nathan... I bribed everyone except Ottomans (too risky with Sipahi coming) and the semi-damaged Spanish and Indians into MAs against Germany. Of course that means: 1) Germany promptly got Ottomans into the act against me, and 2) more AI troops traipsing through the land. Like Nathan, I figured Germany was so far away that the AI allies would peter out before any real damage was done... the good news for me, comparatively, is that Spain and India are not part of the fray, and are in semi-decent shape.

At 750 AD, I researched ToG, traded for Magnetism and a LOT of goodies, and dragged most of the friendly powers into the Industrial age.

I have a good bit more military than SR and Nathan reported:
2 Pike
2 LB
32 Musket
7 Knight
25 MedInf
23 Workers (which I have decided to classify as militry from now on)

The economy is weird, having packed in so tightly: 5th in pop and 6th in land area, but first in MFG and second in GNP.

Other than the Germans and Ottomans, however, everyone is STILL polite or gracious.

Spain is definitely the weak link, as I think India will survive till Infantry, and then can be properly defended with an American Maginot Line. Actually, having Ottomans aligned with Germany is probably good.

The screenshot below is pretty interesting... note the tight core, note the single MedInf defenders... NOTE THE FRIGGIN' MONGOL STACK IN THE MIDDLE OF MY UNDEFENDED CORE!!! Those bad boys have been wandering around America since time immemorial.

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	07-10-2003 05:48									#8
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Here's the fun spot...

Mongols captured Barcelona from Spain... Japanese from Mongols... Germans from Japan. Germany will go on to capture Batshireet.

America is building Knights.

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	07-10-2003 05:54									#9
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Here they come...

Iroq: 7 LB and 8 Knights
Rome: 6 Legion, 10 MedInf, 8 LB, and 2 Archer

I hope they get across my territory fast enough to do anything!

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	08-10-2003 20:06									#10
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I just wanted to post a short message comparing my efforts at peacekeeping with old Abe's during the civil war or George Bush for that matter.

Given America's peace efforts, wars have been limited to the following as of AD530

Mongols are fighting Japan, Germany, Iroquois, Rome
Babs are fighting Japan
India is fighting Rome and Germany
Germany is fighting everyone but Rome
Iroquois are fighting Germany, Spain, Ottomans, and Mongols

I could go on, but why?

So, in case I post later claiming to have won the game with all civs surviving, it will be clearly just luck.

Strategic Insight: make RoP agreements to speed the troops of everyone else across your land and hurry the average turn time.

	08-10-2003 22:04									#11
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I just figured out a blind spot in my playing style that helped play a role in Spain's downfall. I'm not used to being particularly generous with backward civs; I'm willing to give them relatively good deals, but almost never outright giveaways. I did consider giving Spain saltpeter, but decided against it because (1) the general feeling seems to be that pikemen are more cost-effective than musketmen and (2) Spain didn't have a lot of gold to upgrade existing units. I also tended to bleed off Spain's gold per turn out of fear that if I didn't sell them techs, they would buy them from someone else.

What I should have done was give Spain saltpeter, give them all the techs that anyone else had so no one else could draw away gold from upgrades with tech sales, and perhaps even give them some gold for upgrades out of my income from other civs. But that degree of generosity is so far outside my normal playing style that it didn't occur to me at the time and, in any case, I kept expecting the war to end. (And I certainly wasn't planning in terms of the Japanese distraction and the Mongol pile-on that occurred near the end of Spain's existence).

I don't know whether I could have saved Spain with such tactics or not, but chances aren't bad. Higher losses might have caused Germany to make peace, and even if they didn't, Spain might have lived long enough for me to develop the military power needed to intervene successfully on their behalf.

Nathan

	08-10-2003 23:55									#12
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Spain is going down the tubes in my game too, although it isn't over yet. In addition to the above, I'm plotting to get all Spain's neighbors involved in other altercations. But, it's going to take good luck to keep the weak Spanish afloat. Russ

	09-10-2003 00:20									#13
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It's nice to see things are turning out the way I'd intended. Spain was supposed to be weak. With a bad starting location and Germany as their neighbor it was bad for them to start.

	09-10-2003 00:40									#14
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I think the key in this game is to "eliminate" the Mongols to grab more land for yourself, and then the Spanish so that they do not lose the Germans. All the other civs are pretty safe, although the Ottomans could fall to the Germans if Germany gets too aggressive too quick.


Dominae

	09-10-2003 00:44									#15
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Saving Spain

It's critical to have a big gold supply to bribe other civs into alliances. You want to break up coordinated attacks on civs you are trying to protect without doing the job with your own troops, IMO.

The Babs and Gandhi were crushing Spain in my game. So, in addition to propping up Spain as Nathan suggests above, Old Abe waited until both India and the Babs were fully engaged in Knight/Elephant attacks and then bribed both the Mongols and Babs to attack India. The resulting chaos seems to be giving Spain breathing room. Meantime, Abe grabbed a couple of additional lux resources.

Somehow, India is doing all this fighting while staying in Democracy.

	09-10-2003 20:28									#16
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Yes, Spain is saved for now

But the alliance to "save Spain" is causing India to collapse

	11-10-2003 09:41									#17
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I'm going to give this new DAR format thing a try instead of a blow by blow...we'll see how it goes.

My goal is, and has been since the beginning, to expand like weeds in a garden. The more land I have = the possibility of controlling more resources and the chance to minimize the AIs having border clashes and killing one another off. I guess I should mention again that I'm playing Monarch level, AU mod. I had a few objectives inside of that overall growth plan. One was to cut off the Indians from the rest of the continent, ie. keep them on their little peninsula. The second was to gain domestic control of as many resources as possible. That meant I'd have to string myself out up towards the Romans to get access to the Ivory.

Since the game is peacekeeping, I'm assuming I'm going to need a peacekeeping force. I went nowhere near as military thin as it seems others have. At the point of the industrial age I have:

68 workers (only 3 are foreigns)
20 warriors
18 spearmen
NOTE: Planning on upgrading these to what...riflemen I guess? Not sure...but I'm going to upgrade them They've been my military police so far.
13 swordsmen
6 horsemen
3 pikemen
15 knights

OK...so maybe I did go a little military thin. But there haven't been any wars *knocks on wood* since the ancient era. Everyone's living in peaceful harmony

The beginning of this block for me was in 650BC. For the most part, I'm at tech parity with the world. They know some techs I don't and I know some techs they don't. I tended to trade whenever I could get a decent deal and later on, I would start buying techs rather than researching seeing as I was producing about 150 to 200 gpt and could buy the techs for the equivalent of 4 turns research, so why not?

The same turn the round started, I traded the Babs to get both of us into the Middle Ages. I know they'd get a free tech and it was Feudalism. This would start the buying phase of my turns The Ottomans and the Babylonians were the tech drivers all the way through the middle ages with sporadic help from the Germans.

I kept founding towns like crazy...MORE LAND, MORE LAND!

Barbarians started to be a problem once the middle ages started since the Jungle to the west of Washington was largely unsettled. I had a force of about 8 swordsmen that I sent over to clear the way for the army of settlers I had moving there. Things went largely as planned and my expansion pushed all the way to the Ottoman/German border. I would have liked to get a row of cities in there to act as a buffer between them, but no luck.

Once I had settled everything I could in the jungle, I entered a heavy builder mode. That was about 230AD and I had 33 cities. Up to this point, I had been largely ignoring city improvements, but now started building them like they were going out of style. All of the 1 shield cities I had start with a warrior and then a worker. If, after the worker they could build another one, they did. Otherwise it was osciallate back to warrior/worker. My personal feeling is that workers make the world go 'round. I tend to have a ton of them wandering to clear out jungle and get the roads up asap. I guess the 68 workers works out to more than 2 per city. Given the jungle out to the west though, I'm glad I built as many as I did.

Over the course of this block, I encountered two main difficulties. The first was a lack of a war. The AI continued to expand and without a war, I really couldn't "prune" any to keep their expansion in check. Hence the Babylonians, Ottomans and Germans running rampant at the moment. The second difficulty, and something I could have planned better, was the lack of leaders for wonders. It really has been a wonder race for a lot of them. At the moment, I have Copernicus' Observatory and Leonardo's Workshop. I know that they won't be overly helpful for me this game, but I was more concerned with denying them to the other big 3 civs. I lucked out and the Romans picked up the Sistine Chapel. At the moment, they're relatively harmless and I have a feeling they'll stay that way. Right now, the rush is on for JS Bach's, Adam Smith's and Newton's University. I'm making a push for Adam Smith's, but I'm not overly concerned with the other two. I'm hoping the efficiency of my empire can make up for not having Newton's while I haven't had trouble keeping 6 or 7 luxuries around, so Bach's shouldn't be too sorely missed either. I could always be wrong

One of the benefits of my early expansion was that I had a good hold on the special resources. Iron and later on saltpeter, were two of the major ones I could parcel out to 3 or 4 different civs. I ended up with 3 iron and 3 saltpeter, leaving 2 to trade out. Towards the end of the middle ages, one of the saltpeter got me 63gpt (from the Germans) and ToG (from the Babylonians). I think the big civs not having access to this (save the Ottomans) was one of the reasons that everyone's been out of war for so long. Here's hoping the same thing happens with oil and coal

One of the turning points I think, was my construction of the Forbidden Palace. I know it's not optimal, but the vast majority of my cities are now at least decent in production. It was actually completed (built from scratch) in 540AD.

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	11-10-2003 09:42									#18
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This whole time, I've been in Monarchy. I think that also contributed to my lagging the Babs and Ottomans in technology. With the FP up and running, I could up my tech rate to 80% and still make money, so I decided to beeline for Democracy. What a difference! Took 6 turns of anarchy, but once I was out, it was 4 turn research all the way while still making money. Now that the industrial age has started, I can research Steam Power (which noone else has) in 5 turns while making 106gpt. Even at the 100% level I can't get it in 4 turns though...tough luck.

The Ottomans and Germans got Medicine free while the Babs got Nationalism free. My hope is to be the first to Steam Power and trade it for those 2 techs. Then, beeline to make an attempt for the Theory of Evolution. I already have a few prebuilds working with other wonders not built yet. Only time will tell.

Looking back on my two objectives, I think I accomplished them. First, the Indians are for all intents and purposes, bottled up.

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	11-10-2003 09:43									#19
	Put an end to popups!

I also managed to get up to the Ivory near the Roman territory and also beef up the city string as well so that it's not just a line 1 city deep...there are other cities around to support it.

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	11-10-2003 09:43									#20
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Anyway...not sure if this was better or worse than a blow by blow, but it sure was shorter. Right now, I think I'm sitting in a good position to keep everyone around. I've managed to keep the Mongols relatively small. They, the Indians and the Spanish are the three smallest at the moment. The Japs and the Romans are in the mid range and the Babs, Ottomans and Germans are in the "watch your back" stage. Going to be a fun industrial age

	11-10-2003 10:16									#21
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Looks like you've got it going pretty well Taian. Glad you're having fun with the course.

By the way I tend to like the way you just wrote this last DAR over a blow by blow. It's always been my opinion that the "why" is more important than a dry list of statistics when writing a DAR.

	16-10-2003 23:30									#22
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Monarch, AU Mod

Industrial Era - arrived at in 770 AD in Perfect Peacenik style. Only 2 wars in history - Iroq-Bab (Babs got one city) and Babs sneak attacking USA, but fended off for seven turns then peace.

My game has some simiarities to Taian's, looking at the map, though I did not wish to contain India (I see your Idea, Taian - they'd be safe behind your chokepoint) but to encourage them and Spain to push their expansion westward towards Germany. It seems to have worked, as so far Spain is OK.

I played on a couple of turns after hitting Ind to get Newtons. This screenshot is from 810AD:

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	16-10-2003 23:33									#23
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Republic was reached 13 turns into the block, with over 2000g to spend on libraries, which got rushed all round the borders and wherever there was a resource 2 tiles from a city. Iroquoian culture was a particular concern, but the eventual result was a culture explosion mirroring the growth explosion reported in the previous DAR. I've never seen a culture graph turn so shrply right. 1 Mongol city flipping almost immediately, and a second some time later. I'm no longer bothered about the Iroq's culture.

After the libraries, walls went up all round, and when Currency was researched in 310 BC, 2 other civs were already in the middle ages - the Babs with Engineering, and the Ottomans with Feudalism.

Middle Ages entry Civ stats:

25 cities - only jungle left in feasible terrain

21 Workers
23 Spears - (nearly all vet)
4 Archers
2 Horsemen
10 Swords

1st in Approval, Pop, Land, Mfg, GNP, Income, Productivity
Strong F3 cf all civs
3 luxuries owned, 4th in 2 turns
3 Iron, 1 horses


Here's the log from that turn that got me all three Middle Age starter techs :

quote: 310 BC Babs have Engineering, Ottomans have Feudalism. Gift Currency to Germany, and they have Monotheism. Trade Republic for Feudalism (Ottomans) Trade Republic, Feudalism, 350g and 6gpt for Engineering (Babs) Trade Republic, Feudalism, Engineering, 16gpt and 100g for Monotheism (Germans) Trade Republic for Monarchy (Spain) Sell Monotheism to Babs for 370g + 1gpt I've never had a Middle Age Starter 'Office Suite' like this. Germany came up trumps, but that's their trait + RNG Gods. A net outlay of 500g with Republic for that lot ain't bad Plan 2 barracks in NW territories and one in SW to help with upgrades. 1 needs a courthouse first though (stored too many shields), so drop research to 0 (+80gpt) and rush courthouse and 2 barracks.

Research stayed off for several turns while cash was raised to upgrade all Spears to Pikes. Mil policy was heavier than in some of the DARs here - 2 vet defenders per border, 1 vet defender internal with assortment of 4 archers, 10 swords, 2 horses spread around the (long) border. The two barracks cities assigned early in the game to feed vet spears to settlers from the four pumps kept going to provide this until they had a break for building way into the middle ages (allowing the Babs to catch up in military and get cocky).

When the science pedal was pushed down again I chose Invention for Leos and then Gunpowder. Muskets are not considered great defence-for money value, compared to Pikes, but I wanted the best defensive unit available everywhere as a counter to knights, to keep things stable. Everyone says "don't build Leo's unless you're planning a mass offensive upgrade" but I disagree with that, insisting that mass defensive upgrades are also a viable use for this wonder. 40 pikes to muskets at 60g an upgrade = 2400g. Well worth halving.Then throw in a few offensive units, and consider AI-denial and the future too - it's a cool Wonder for the defensive builder.

However, in 320AD Tzu's, Sistine and Leo were all completed by the AI leaving my feeling like this: at my 550-shield cathedral. The turn before a courthouse had completed in Los Angeles, and a start made on the Forbidden Palace (23 turns).

I did at least build Copernicus easily with a Palace prebuild, as all the others were finished, for half of te GA requirement. It's good to see people having to build the right wonders to get their GA for a change (nice one, Abe) rather than going the UU route. Not that I did that well though, as I've gone off early wonders in favour of expansion, and forgot that the Industrial Wonders stop at Hanging Garderns and don't return until Hoover Dam. Hoov it is, then. I added Newton's right at the end of the era via a comfy tech lead, with Smiths near completion in the capital, and Bach's also on the go (opportunist Bank prebuild after AI discovered Music Theory).

During this block trade opened up with the Iroqs (Ivory), Mongols (Spice) Japan (Wines) and Germany (Gems). These added to my own 4 luxuries making a very happy smiley set :





(you get the idea)

Expensive, though, as my population grew (currently over 50gpt to the Iroqs). This is why I like backward trading partners: their lux for my tech +1gpt. I always include a gpt to 'hold' the deal at the end for renegotiation. Since doing that, together with trying to pay whatever it takes for a luxury, I've been better at winning and holding these. I used to fume at the AI for hogging all the lux deals amongst itself, but you gotta get in there and stay in there. It pays off too (for this PP playstyle). Apart from WLTK everwhere it shifts the odds towards peace, and if you are paying them a mint you might be able to get it back on tech sales at another phase in the trade-cycle. They certainly will be less inclined to attack their best source of trading income.

Whilst keeping the 'laggers' a bit behind, I've been feeding them tech too after it's been around a while to keep them in sight - especially Gunpowder. Can't be allowing a 'killer' AI in this game. With the military out of the way early and then upgraded, and supplements added constantly from dedicated barracks cities, most cities could just build, so there are several large, banked-and-uni'd-up cities.

	16-10-2003 23:36									#24
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Just one blip on the peace though - the Babs threatened for Physics in 670AD and accepted my refusal. I switched some barracks cities to knights (they'd been catching up on economy) and rushed a couple of Uni's in others to make way for more knights. Six knights and the eastern 4 * Med Inf stack were moved into the border zone with the Babs, who sneak-attacked in 710 AD.

After some initial skirmishes, it was clear that they had a few knights, and an Army...

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	16-10-2003 23:38									#25
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Defenders were poured into Dalanz' (flip from Mongolia) and the enemy closed in...

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	16-10-2003 23:40									#26
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Their 3*Cav Army attacks Dalandz, killing my Elite musket but reducing itself to 3HP and is killed on my turn.

The rest of their forces sweep South towards Almarikh.

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	16-10-2003 23:44									#27
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By 780, they are routed, and Hammy pays 220g for peace, after six or seven turns of combat.

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	16-10-2003 23:59									#28
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I was 2 turns from Cav when I took peace, (*Theseus faints) but I fancied seeing if I could still get Hammy's vote on judgement day. A five gpt gift took him to annoyed, so there's a chance. Unfortunately, we've nothing to trade so I couldn't keep him off my back.

Here are the numbers:

30 workers
5 longbow
53 Muskets
19 Cavalry
10 Med Inf

1st in all economic indicators except land (3rd).
GNP : 1364
Mfg : 356

Only Babylon (Steam) and Iroquois are in the Industrial Era - others are two or three behind. I'm doing Nationalism in 5 turns in case Hammy starts again and to spread around to stop people getting knocked over.

Memo to Self: after reading this thread, must pay close attention to Spain's well-being.

(End of DAR Block Four from Cort Haus.)

	17-10-2003 01:35									#29
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Great job, Cort.

Take care of the Iroquois too... where else are Hammy's troops (that you did'nt kill ) going to go?

	17-10-2003 20:40									#30
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Well actually, I was more worried about the Babs being short if I chased after them, and the Iroqs jumping in to finish the Babs off. The Iroqs got the Great Library and a Middle Age GA, so they did OK in my game, despite their dodgy territory.

(Hammy and I did make up later, too. )