05-10-2003 11:58									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: You seem to enjoy naively dismissing the possiblility that the extremists living in Iraq could be influential enough to cause problems down the line. You're missing the point that these extremists are going to cause problems down the line no matter what. Why tear some fine-ass honeys away from their soldier boys in order to placate some crazys that are going to hate us no matter what we do? Seems rather non-sensical to me.

Using instances like this gives them something to wave in front of the fence-sitter's face screaming, "SEE!? SEE!?" It's a lot harder to convince someone that rebuilding infrastructure/schools/economy/etc is Evil American Imperialism (TM).

Getting my drift yet?

	05-10-2003 11:59									#62
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No.

Maybe we should just tell the soldiers to hunker down in their Humvees and not come out for fear of inciting the locals

	05-10-2003 12:03									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker No. Maybe we should just tell the soldiers to hunker down in their Humvees and not come out for fear of inciting the locals

Not a bad idea, but still wouldn't work. Like I said, we have to be careful about HOW we antagonize the radicals, not IF we antagonize them. We should just stick to rebuilding their country, structuring their government into a democratic state, and maintain the peace (*holds back uneasy laughter*).

	05-10-2003 12:03									#64
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quote: Using instances like this gives them something to wave in front of the fence-sitter's face screaming, "SEE!? SEE!?"

What are they going to yell "SEE!?" at? The American serviceman who loved their Iraqi wives enough to convert to Islam to marry them? Oh, the horror! I bet the average Iraqi will be incensed at that barbaric behavior.

	05-10-2003 12:06									#65
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The soldiers, by their own public admission, said they converted to be allowed to marry. I have serious doubts they were "called to the faith."

	05-10-2003 12:09									#66
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I wish I could meet a hot Iraqi woman.

	05-10-2003 12:09									#67
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When did I ever say they were "called to the faith"? I just think it shows how much they love their wives for them to convert, even if they didn't really want to.

	05-10-2003 12:09									#68
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quote: I wish I could meet a hot Iraqi woman.

Be all you can be, an army of one.

	05-10-2003 12:11									#69
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Drake, I didn't say you said that. I'm trying to put myself into the dusty shoes of those that would have a serious problem with these marriages. I don't have a problem with them, I'm just trying to be mindful of other forces in this world and how they'd likely react.

	05-10-2003 13:13									#70
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Using instances like this gives them something to wave in front of the fence-sitter's face screaming, "SEE!? SEE!?" It's a lot harder to convince someone that rebuilding infrastructure/schools/economy/etc is Evil American Imperialism (TM). Getting my drift yet?

You're dismissing the possibility of other fence-sitters seeing this and saying, "hey, maybe the americans aren't so bad...,"

	05-10-2003 20:44									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: You seem to enjoy naively dismissing the possiblility that the extremists living in Iraq could be influential enough to cause problems down the line. You're missing the point that these extremists are going to cause problems down the line no matter what. Why tear some fine-ass honeys away from their soldier boys in order to placate some crazys that are going to hate us no matter what we do? Seems rather non-sensical to me.

One, you're assuming that only "extremists" will object.

Two, you're assuming the US Army is suddenly concerned with placating the opinions of "extremists" (if so, why are TF20, TF Iron Horse and the d-boys hunting their asses daily).

This is not a new policy, nor is it one just for the mideast. The same thing applied in WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, and in peacetime in a number of situations sailors with their girls in every port, etc.

The issue actually identified by the CO was focus on the unit's mission. If a large portion of the horny young unattached contingent of the US forces is suddenly looking for bangtail, and an equally large contingent of Iraqi women are looking for green card city, then you have a FUBAR in the making. Like I said earlier, we are not running a ****ing dating service.

	05-10-2003 20:46									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten When did I ever say they were "called to the faith"? I just think it shows how much they love their wives for them to convert, even if they didn't really want to.

So sham conversion to Islam to get some local *****? That'll go over well with everyone.

	05-10-2003 20:48									#73
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quote: Two, you're assuming the US Army is suddenly concerned with placating the opinions of "extremists" (if so, why are TF20, TF Iron Horse and the d-boys hunting their asses daily).

No I'm not. I'm pretty sure the Army's reasons for opposing this have nothing to do with placating extremists. Drosedars seemed to be supporting the Army's decision based on that line of reasoning, however, which is what I was questioning.

quote: looking for bangtail

Yet another MtG word that will find its way into my vocabulary, right next to "lima delta"...

	05-10-2003 20:50									#74
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quote: So sham conversion to Islam to get some local *****? That'll go over well with everyone.

Getting local ***** and marrying it are not the same thing. All the boys out loving and leaving the Iraqis are doing more harm to US interests than these two guys.

	05-10-2003 20:53									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Theben You're dismissing the possibility of other fence-sitters seeing this and saying, "hey, maybe the americans aren't so bad...,"

Or unmarried Iraqi males, or parents, or siblings, saying "They're stealing our women!!

If this becomes common practice (it won't), how long do you think it'll be, in an occupied country full of hotheads (and I'm talking about average Iraqis here, plus the US troops) with Kalashnikovs, before jealousy or family issues lead somebody to shoot a US troop, or try to, and then you get your response by US forces, in a "normal," previously non-hostile neighborhood.

Sorry to disappoint some of the "noble" civvy types, but the conduct of the mission of the United States in occupying Iraq is a higher priority than the ***** chase of some E3s and E4s.

	05-10-2003 20:59									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: So sham conversion to Islam to get some local *****? That'll go over well with everyone. Getting local ***** and marrying it are not the same thing. All the boys out loving and leaving the Iraqis are doing more harm to US interests than these two guys.

Not many of them are out "loving and leaving" - there aren't enough Iraqi women around who (at least in their home country) shed their social and religious conservatism enough to be interested, and at the same time have enough escape from Iraqi male or familial supervision.

Nor are a majority of US forces based in situations where they can just stroll out the front gate of camp and make a left down Bangtail Boulevard. Their range of interaction of any kind with the locals when off duty is pretty limited.

In the case of these two, it's very likely they had to marry the women to get anything. And now, instead of whatever jobs they were supposed to be doing, they're spending their time trying to square away moving and immigration issues and everything else.

	05-10-2003 21:01									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Yet another MtG word that will find its way into my vocabulary, right next to "lima delta"...

What can I say, my brother, my DI and most of my senior NCO's all did time in 'Nam.

	05-10-2003 21:02									#78
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quote: And now, instead of whatever jobs they were supposed to be doing, they're spending their time trying to square away moving and immigration issues and everything else.

I understand this objection, at least.

	06-10-2003 01:50									#79
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Or unmarried Iraqi males, or parents, or siblings, saying "They're stealing our women!! If this becomes common practice (it won't), how long do you think it'll be, in an occupied country full of hotheads (and I'm talking about average Iraqis here, plus the US troops) with Kalashnikovs, before jealousy or family issues lead somebody to shoot a US troop, or try to, and then you get your response by US forces, in a "normal," previously non-hostile neighborhood. Sorry to disappoint some of the "noble" civvy types, but the conduct of the mission of the United States in occupying Iraq is a higher priority than the ***** chase of some E3s and E4s.

so you are implying that if officers were marrying Iraqi women that would be okay?

I'm sorry, but ***** is very important. More important than the search fro imaginary weapons of mass destruction.

	06-10-2003 01:53									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident so you are implying that if officers were marrying Iraqi women that would be okay?

I'm saying there's no regulation requiring commissioned or warrant officers to seek the permission of their CO's to marry foreign nationals when stationed overseas.

	06-10-2003 01:57									#81
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Then maybe they should use professional soldiers and not the Florida National Guard.

	06-10-2003 02:16									#82
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quote: In military law, an order from proper authority is presumed to be valid and lawful unless shown otherwise, and the burden of proving the order invalid or unlawful is on the party who would disobey that order. That means that marginal or questionable orders will be viewed in favor of the command authority. There's always a line somewhere, between "questionable judgment" and "clearly unlawful" but where that line falls is a pain in the ass to determine.

So basically, these guys have 2 options:

1)Take the Artical 15 and move on.

2)Raise the stakes and request trial by court martial.

Number 1 is definitely the better option for the soldiers involved. Option 2 would be better for everyone else, if they were to win. Problem is the long odds. Last time I checked, conviction rates for courts martial was above 95%. If they lost that, they could appeal to CAAF, and hope to illicit sympathy from the civillian judges there (also not likely). If, by some miracle, they won, it would establish a precedent that would be better for service members. However, by losing, they're basically screwed for life.

Of course, the army could always stop being so goddamned assinine, and realize that this could create even more recruiting and retention problems than they already have...

	06-10-2003 03:14									#83
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I love all this talk of the soldier's "mission".

The soldiers mission is get drunk, get laid, stay alive. It never changes.

	06-10-2003 03:17									#84
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat ...the conduct of the mission of the United States in occupying Iraq is a higher priority than the ***** chase of some E3s and E4s.

They are occupying Iraq!!

One 'piece' at a time.

(sorry, couldn't resist)

	06-10-2003 04:35									#85
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I'd like to see the rules of engagement