04-10-2003 22:13									#1
	Need suggestions for particular prob. (deity) Support Apolyton

I just started a deity game, and i stand for one particularly difficult problem.
I just got iron working, and found out i do not have acces to either iron or horses.

the only source i know of is next to the Iroquois capital, the iroquois are currently the stronest civ on the map.

the iroquois hav twice as many citizens as i have, and have a small tech lead (thats normal on deity 2000BC)

So this will be a hard game, i will have to qonquer the capital of my strongest opponent before he starts building swordsmen or horsemen (archers do quite bad against those i think)

when i have the capital, i need not to lose it to city flips (in other words replace by my own city) and then try to get peace with him again before he will run overme with his much stronger millitary.

I am thinking about offering him back the city in exchange for peace after building my own city on top of the iron source(there is one square between it and the capital) if he doesnt want to sign peace.
-Does the AI accept such offers for peace?
-Will the culture in the city produced that far be lost for him? meaning it will have a smal cultural influence allowing me to maintain a city next to it without fearing culture flips.

If i take his captal , make sure it will have only1 citizen and it has not cultural influence in his borders, how will the chances of a city flip be? (how many units would be needed to reduce the chance to virtually 0?)

This makes it a hard game to start with, but there are also positive things:
- i have been able to buy 3 workers already this far, 2 for techs, 1 for 30 gold.
-got 2 techs out of goody huts, am tech equal with most opponents.
-only one of the squares at distance 4 is unusable (city ring placement) so i can make 7 very productive cities. most of these will have acces to at least one 2/2/2 square.
-the capital and 2th city have acces to a 3 food after working) square (3/2/2 and 3/0/2 respectively)
-acces to one luxery next to capital.

I am now at the point where i am building my 4th city, have just gained mysticism and iron working an researching polytheism. I have contact with 4 of the 7 opponents (normal size pangea)

	04-10-2003 23:09									#2
	Tired of ads?

To reduce at 0% flipping chances= one unit for every city's population index, plus one (ex: city pop5; 6 units)

Be smart: See which city became his new capital (if you can't find it on the map, talk to him and exclude the city that doesn't appear on the city for trade list), declare war again (IF he has made contacts with another AI then you shouldn't attack him under peace treaty otherwise no one will trust you again, and reputation is BASIC on Deity, otherwise they won't trade technology for gpt)- destroy them once for all, you don't need another opponent that will hate you forever to knock at your doors when you'll be running desperately after the tech tree. Remember that weak units such as workers are sent back into the cities in case of war: get them. And DON'T raze their cities, as soon as they will disappear, they will finally become normal citizens

Good luck

	05-10-2003 00:30									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

since it's still early in the game, the capital will only be defended by 3 or 4 defenders.. make sure you bring enough troops to capture the city and hold it for a few turns.. the AI will probably talk to you soon.

I would not recommand returning the city, but instead starve (build workers) the city down to size 1 and either add your own worker or 2 or work food tiles to grow the city. have at least 2 units in the city at all times and the city should not flip.

of course you can go ahead and build another city ontop of the iron, but usually when you've taken an AI city.. they'll be willing to make peace, as long as they talk to you...

	05-10-2003 02:40									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

about razing the, i am talking about archers here, i cannot raze an empire with some early archers. i am talking 2000BC here.

i am planning to produce 6 vet archers, 6 vet warriors and 1 spearmen for stack defence (there is a hill next to the capital, so i will have def bonus.

these will be the first 13 units i have produced, i will have little or nothing else.

when i took the city, the iea is to quel the resistance, rush build a barracks and upgrade the 6 warriors right away. after this, i will keep producing warriors in the rest of my empire that is not yet connected to the iron (the iron is 3 mountain squares and 2 normal ones away from me) and send those to the captured city to be upgraded.

my worry however is that when i took the city, they will not sign peace before i take more cities, and attack me before i have the resistance queled. something that can be very hard to do for me. i know it will take 5 turns b4 they will talk to me, but then they might have insane demands for peace.

Also do i fear other opponents declaring war on me before i'm ready, as my rep will be damaged for declaring war.

finally on the flipping, i seen the possible formula, but it aint clear what the real chance is. one thing that is clear is that there are a lot of factors doubling their chance:
distance to capital, culture in city made by them(they are building oracle there) culture in whole civ (i don't think i have ever outcultured any opponent in early game)

	05-10-2003 03:07									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

I can't really say much.... but... I was at Wacken Open Air 2002

	05-10-2003 03:49									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Don't stress yourself with the iron matter. Of course you could have 5, 6 stronger units in a matter of 10 turns, but the other factions would take a huge advantage as well..if I was in your place I'd keep building archers, regrouping and then attack. Losing all of them, at this point, wouldn't be a problem, after all the main goal is getting the city and eliminating the enemy once for all- just a cpl questions:

Are they in contact with another faction yet? If so, they may be producing units stronger than yours just because of their advanced tech level. Don't waste your time

How many cities do they own? 1, 2, 3 go and get them; 5, 6 seize what you need and ask for mercy

	05-10-2003 07:57									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

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Last edited by WackenOpenAir on 05-10-2003 at 08:05

	05-10-2003 08:04									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Hi ectelion. Nice to hear you were at woa 2002 But:
werent you at woa 2003 then?
didn't you like woa 2002 enough to go to 2003 as well?
i am from holland, it is a 750 km drive to wacken for me. i went to wacken for the first time 5 years ago, it was the best ****in festival ever, and still is. i have been there every year after, and have alread ordered my tickets for WOA 2004.
Hope you will go there again.

Back to topic:

the situation is as follows:

its about 2700 BC

they are in the centre of the pangea map, they have contact with everyone.

i have the first vertical row of techs + mysticism and iron working.

they have the same and horseback riding as well.

i am, about to build my 4th city, all oponents have 6 or 7.

Iron I MUST have because:

chivalry is the tech that makes the huge difference, i need to get it at least as fast as the AI gets it.
I need to upgrade horsemen then to have a superior army.
I cannot get to chivalry first by teching myself. I need to obtain techs in peace negotiations.

in order to make em pay for peace, i need to hurt em well, possibly more than 1 opponent.

Swordsmen are needed to hurt them.

	05-10-2003 21:16									#9
	Suffering from ads?

It sounds like you have this invasion pretty well planned.. with you brining warriors to upgrade and what not.

and it sounds like you won't have any problems with taking the capital, but you might want to bring a few extra archers just incase.

I don't know what civ you're playing, but you should definitely pop rush the barracks, which will bring the city further down 2 or 1 pop point, and just starve the rest or rush more spearmen (since you are only bringing 1)

I don't think you'll have any problems with the counterattack, except for their UU, the MW (do they have horses hooked up?). Just make sure you strike them first if they end their turn within reach of your units, and try not to leave your units out in the open if you don't have to.

if you have enough gold and enough warriors to upgrade, you can definitely crush or cripple them.. go for it.

	05-10-2003 22:01									#10
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Why can't he be just diplomatic (aka tricky )

Just seize the capital, get the damn iron as well, propose a peace treaty and give him what he wants- then wait 20 turns and crush him with those new units

	07-10-2003 03:11									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

oh i couldnt hold myself to capture 2 workers on 1 stack while i only had 2 archers yet and 2 in production.

took the workers, destroyed an outlying city and made peace again. they payed me writing and a contact for peace

i pillaged their iron, and will now build up a little stronger army to take their iron soon.

Do i need to wait 20 turns now if i wanna preserve some reputation? the deal simply said it lasts until war is declared, nothing about 20 turns.
oh well, i as long as they will make me gpt deals later on, i don't care much about my rep for other things.

	07-10-2003 03:48									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The problem is that if your reputation is everything but perfect (expecially in Deity!) no one will trade its technology with you for gpt, they won't want to make pacts with you and they could attack you for no reason more and more often. Just fill your cities with military units, and eventually send some of them to stand outside their cities to capture eventual colons that are going to found new cities- at the end of the 20 turns, call him again, renegotiate peace and don't accept it.. and your reputation is safe. After the war is over RUSH your development, as you lost so much time in war, and don't use the new cities to produce workers, as they will come out as foreign workers, causing unhappiness among your citizens and working at half-speed for the rest of the game

	07-10-2003 13:17									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

having foreign workers will not cause unhappiness among your own citizens.

as a matter of fact, it is more desirable to have lots of foreign workers since they require no upkeep. sure, they are slower, but having more of them will make up for their lack of speed.

they are slaves after all

	07-10-2003 22:55									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by PeaSoup having foreign workers will not cause unhappiness among your own citizens.

It will hurt you with the AI's attitude towards you.

	08-10-2003 01:00									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

I was sure about that.. hmm if you say so