05-10-2003 07:59									#1
	Are scientists really that good? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Apart for flame baiting at civfanatics and trying to get passing grades, I play Master of Orion 2 now. It's a wonderful game that I play more than any Civ game now, even more than Alpha Centauri.

Anyway, I have a hard time with production. I love the battleships and titans, and big ships and general because they are more efficient than the small ones. But I have to build tons of improvements to be able to afford them. If I advance very quickly in science, I find myself making too many improvements (I always play creative) and not enough ships. They are too expensive!

So, I focus heavily on just food and production. No scientists. My buildings and treaties are what I rely on. This really helps me get enough work done, but the AI outruns me in technology. Is this a bright idea?

Also, is there any way to get battleoids or tanks to attack enemy bases? I can only put marines in transport ships, so I think the battleoids and tanks are useless if they can only be used for defence. If your colony isn't going to get taken over, it will just be bombed anyway.

	05-10-2003 08:30									#2
	Re: Are scientists really that good? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

No way to use battletoids or tamks, except to defend teh planet.

	05-10-2003 08:39									#3
	Re: Are scientists really that good? Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by King of Rasslin Anyway, I have a hard time with production. I love the battleships and titans, and big ships and general because they are more efficient than the small ones. But I have to build tons of improvements to be able to afford them. If I advance very quickly in science, I find myself making too many improvements (I always play creative) and not enough ships. They are too expensive! So, I focus heavily on just food and production. No scientists. My buildings and treaties are what I rely on. This really helps me get enough work done, but the AI outruns me in technology. Is this a bright idea?

In a word no, that is not a good idea.

What are the settings you are using and racial traits.
We are about to run a creative race demo game, but it will be too slow to be a quick guide on how to play that race. I suspect it will take weeks to finish.

Anyway at impossible setting with a huge map, prewarp you can give yourself time to get the tech needed to pull ahead.
At times you will do very little research with workers, but soon you will have the HW built out and can move all the workers not needed for food to science and start to move out. If you have +P and Uni it will make the race more productive. Then you need to get more planets. Those planets will need to get up an running before they are able to chip in on the research. Get those RL up ASAP. Then supercomps when you get that tech and all science boosters.

	05-10-2003 08:42									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

BTW the way you only need battleships. If I am not creative, I will not have tech for titans or doomstars, unless I steal it. It will be very late in the game, if I do get the tech and I may then make one titan for each leader and in a huge map one DS (if I get the tech).
The DS is to use stellar converter to destroy planets, again if I get the tech.

	05-10-2003 10:37									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Well after making this post, I tried to do a game being non creative relying heavily on spies. I failed miserably.

I had the max number of spies on 2 AIs, and about 40 on another one. I stole advances slower than I expected, and it cost me too much money to maintain so many spies. So, the only way to effectively get tech when non creative is to trade with those stupid computers.

I know that battleships are the most efficient you can get at the start, and titans/stars come so late in the game for me they aren't a factor. But, battleships are so damn expensive! Even if I focus entirely on industry and no science, I just can't get enough production.

I did do well playing as a tolerant lithovore, but I thought I was really exploiting the game so I didn't continue. I don't do pre warp, since it gives an unfair advantage to science type races. I play on normal settings, except I change the difficulty to normal when I need the self esteem boost.

	05-10-2003 10:48									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I play a lot of non creative races at prewarp. You do not need all of the techs, so no need to get excited about stealing it. I just put 2 or 3 on one race for awhile and then get it up to 5 or 6 later, when I am busting their planets.
Just use a strong Uni race and you can out produce them and soon bury them.

	05-10-2003 15:56									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I typically play UNcreative races just to increase the replay value. Playing creative races is incredibly BORING to me.

I honestly prefer customizing a mediocre or somewhat handicaped race and playing Huge map, prewarp, hard level. That beats playing a super-race, which I simply don't find to be as much fun.

	06-10-2003 04:26									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Well, I just played another game today where I was horribly outproduced because I was a dictator and not usual unification. Yes, I was creative, and I built all of the possible production boosters and pollution stoppers. A repulsive Sakkra somehow built a fleet of 15+ battleships and nothing else and raped my home planet before I knew what happened.

I think that the interdimensional trait might be really, really good, because it gives +2 to ship movement iirc. That might have saved me if I had payed attention and noticed that I was suddenly at war, and could rush my fleet back to defend myself. Still, I would have been outnumbered by about 2/1.

I can't see how I couldn't play without using subterranian, uni, or creative. I have to depend heavily on one of these uber techs. I am at war all the time because the AI tries to bully me, and I can hold them at bay for a time, but I fall behind in the tech race because I have so few scientists because I have to make so many ships.

Update: I tried out the omnicient trait, so I could see everything going on in one quick game. I saw that the AI went to attack me a turn after I traded it some fuel cells, even though we were in an alliance! Where is the reputation stat in this game? Secondly, the AI knew about my systems that had no star bases, even though it had never scouted there before.

How do you make omnicient free? If the AI comes with it for free, I should too. Or better yet, how do you take the trait away from the AI? Even AIs without this trait seem to have it. I also think this makes the stealthy ships pick worthless.

I did not patch up to 1.31 yet, since I just got the game recently, by the way.

Last edited by King of Rasslin on 06-10-2003 at 05:36

	06-10-2003 05:42									#9
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by King of Rasslin I think that the interdimensional trait might be really, really good, because it gives +2 to ship movement iirc. That might have saved me if I had payed attention and noticed that I was suddenly at war, and could rush my fleet back to defend myself. Still, I would have been outnumbered by about 2/1. I can't see how I couldn't play without using subterranian, uni, or creative. I have to depend heavily on one of these uber techs. I am at war all the time because the AI tries to bully me, and I can hold them at bay for a time, but I fall behind in the tech race because I have so few scientists because I have to make so many ships.

You did not say were you were in the game, so it is hard to say much. If you got warp interdictors you would be able to keep them from getting on you in less than 4 turns. The best way to keep them from attacking is to be strong. Watch for fleets gathering and be prepared. If I see a race with too many ships I will go after that fleet, so I do not have to watch my back.

If you mean transdimensional, forget it. It is best used by a tele blitz race.
I have not got the time to go into all of the races that can win without those traits, but it is a lot.
Really if you are getting run over, you are not expanding fast enough or tech fast enough and may be using the wrong ship designs for the job.
Expanding or researching is a function of the race, so if you are doing a creative race, I would tend to turtle and bust out with late model BB that the AI can't handle.

	06-10-2003 05:49									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Someone was talking to me about teles, so I fired up one (UniTel Ahw Lhw Rhw +SA). This is a very easy race and by turn 104 I had already eliminated the Mrrs and was on my way to ALtair. I have eccm fast Hv mirved nukes in a battleship. The first rack was enough to take out the star base. I will now set some spies to see if I can destroy Gnol SB before I even get there.
I have research going in Irr Cells and OP queued up with another BB. This means as fast as I locate those chumps they will be getting a visit. I do not play teles much as they are a laugh for awhile, but I miss my research tree.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 07-10-2003 at 22:43

	07-10-2003 20:43									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

First of all patch up.

Second, you haven't said what kinds of ship you are building. I mean what weapons, the designs, etc. You don't need to match the computer in numbers of ships, you just need better ships.

Unlike others here I like cruisers, especially early. You can get a couple of them out quickly and they can be very effective.

	08-10-2003 05:01									#12
	Re: Are scientists really that good? Remove this text

Depends on how much catsup you use.

	08-10-2003 09:17									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Garth, I almost always use the battle pods so I can cram more weapons and mods on my ships, but the cost gets too high too often. I heard the patch makes creative cost 8 picks, so I'm a bit nervous about that. I can't manage my picks well. I think warlord might help me some though.

And the AI overreacts to my spying so much! I get stolen from every other turn it seems, but they immediately go to war whenever I steal something from them! Espionage is very difficult, even with 62 spies on each AI I don't get many techs and it's so expensive.

	08-10-2003 10:58									#14
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Too me the 1.2 game is just got too many exploits. Creative 6 pick is way out of line. Surrenders at the drop of a hat. No inititive. Plasma cannons and Gyros are too powerful.

	08-10-2003 13:48									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

In opposite may be Creative at 8 is too high. May be a more balanced value for it should be 7?

Sometimes I use Armor Barraks on newly conquered planets for better rebellion suppression.

	08-10-2003 19:59									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Don't build so many spies. At most I put 4 spies on an enemy to steal. I usually run 6-12 on defence.

I usually don't get anything until I have the Cyber link, Stealth suit and all the ones below those.If I want to spy I will also take Telepathic and +10 spy, without all that your chances aren't great.

If you look back at much older threads there are some where we discuss ship designs, good races, and even give some detailed logs of games played.