05-10-2003 10:44									#1
	About the Testers being sued.. Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

What's the story here? Who are the "testers", all of them or just the people who posted the images? And what images are they? Where were they posted?

I'm worried, because I am a tester, I don't want to be accused or anything like that... I better check my emails just in case I am being sued! LOL

	05-10-2003 10:45									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Oh wait, is this just a warning from Firaxis? Damn, subheadings, always so vague and misleading

	05-10-2003 10:50									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

They would make of lot of mad if they come after you and that is not good for business.

	05-10-2003 11:46									#4
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Just a warning.

I'm not so worried about getting sued, but about the damage this has done to public beta testing. It is perfectly understandable why they would be reluctant to allow such a huge amount of testers next time.

I know it is bad to judge on a whim but I suspect it was one of the younger testers who probably didn't care about the consequences of such a thing. Oh well, we might never know. What I did now is that our chances as fan site members of beta testing Civ4 have now dropped very close to 0%.

To whoever was the "leaker": thank you for not thinking about things before acting like an idiot. May your copy of C3C crash with your hardware you little ****-fer-brains.

	05-10-2003 12:17									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 They would make of lot of mad if they come after you and that is not good for business.

Yes, shame on them. If they had an issue with a tester they should have handled it privately. Its very unprofessional to publicly threaten a group that is working for you. And to say they will be less likely to offer public tests puts the rest of us down and is self-defeating because some people would be less likely to volunteer to help them.

Certainly, if someone screwed up then they should answer for it, there are reasons for the non-disclosure statements. They really should lay some of the blame on how they selected the testers. Sometimes you get what you get.

	05-10-2003 13:11									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

It's really bad that there will be no more public Firaxis beta tests .

What were the images that caused this to happen?

	05-10-2003 17:11									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

Where on earth are these images of which they speak? It seems to me that announcing that there are a bunch of illegal images out there will only encourage people to go looking for them who otherwise would never have known of their existence.

	05-10-2003 17:46									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

And so what if they see them.

Firaxis is clearly making a statement here. One that says "If you do this, your ass is toast".

To assume that this is about the pictures is simply ignorant. This is about the broader issue, and about preventing other, potentially more damaging things to leak.

Asmodean

	05-10-2003 19:05									#9
	Put an end to popups!

Dunno if i am missing something, but as far as i understand public beta testers have posted screenshots of the game they are testing.

Firaxis shouldnt make a deal out of that, they should accept it.

I also play Blizzard games a lot (Diablo + warcraft/starcraft) when they do public beta tests, the whole world downloads illegal copies and plays it on private servers.

Battle reports and strategy guides apear on the net very long before the game is realeased.

Blizzard doesn't really do too much about it.
If it affects their sales, it is most likely in a positive way. All the games they released have been number 1 selling games with many best of the year awards.

just make quality games and don't bother about things like that.

	05-10-2003 19:06									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Who cares? If they want to release a crash-plagued product, let them do so

	05-10-2003 19:19									#11
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I'm guessing they will probably hire companies (like Absolute Quality) to test their products from here on out, rather than trusting people from here ever again.

	05-10-2003 21:16									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I agree Firaxis/Atari should have handled the issue privately with the individual(s) posting the info, while issuing a general release stating that the testers are not allowed to post such images.

The vast majority of testers, I believe, do honor NDA's and most people familiar with the Civ community and Atari/Infrogrames from this Site and others would be very familiar with Legal actions Infrogrames has taken in the past against people in the Civ community, such as with the original German translation debacle, and would understand the consequences to themselves and the community as a whole of posting such info.

Its sad when I couple lone people have to ruin it for the rest of us. Those that did this (if they in fact did) do not represent the civ community as a whole.

	05-10-2003 22:16									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

beta tests internally or by a hired company are by far not enuogh to ensure a decent quality level.

The more people play the beta and discuss about it the better, it will solve both bugs, and game balance. if many people play the beta on servers, they will al be trying to find and abuse exploits in the game, which is exactly what you want in a beta test.

	05-10-2003 22:28									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by WackenOpenAir Dunno if i am missing something, but as far as i understand public beta testers have posted screenshots of the game they are testing.

Unless they obtained explicit permission, then it is illegal.

Here's a direct quote from the NDA:

quote: 5. Protection of Confidential Information. During the course of performing your obligations under this Agreement, you may have access to computer software, business methods or other technical or business information which is not generally known and which is proprietary to BreakAway and/or Firaxis and/or Atari and/or to parties affiliated with Atari (“Confidential Information”). Specifically, you agree to treat as Confidential Information all information concerning the Game or of which you are otherwise made aware in connection with performing your obligations under this Agreement, including without limitation, the Feedback, any technical or business information Atari provides to you in connection with this Agreement, regardless of whether it is specifically designated as confidential and regardless of whether it is in written, oral, electronic, or other form. The Confidential Information may include, without limitation, trade secrets, know-how, inventions, game interfaces, technical data or specifications, testing methods, business or financial information, research and development activities, product and marketing plans, and customer and supplier information. You agree that you shall maintain all Confidential Information in strict confidence; and will use all Confidential Information only for the purposes stated in this Agreement. You agree to maintain all the Confidential Information in confidence during the term and after termination of this Agreement, and agree not to disclose or permit access by any third party to any Confidential Information, unless BreakAway expressly permits you to do so in writing.

That should pretty much give you an idea of what can't be leaked (everything that isn't an general impression of the game)

	05-10-2003 23:08									#15
	Suffering from ads?

Remember, Firaxis did not run the public beta test, Breakaway Games did, so Firaxis had no direct contact with the beta testers ouside of a few people to relay info about what got fixed each week. And the Breakaway beta tester forum closed friday night limiting the ability to contact beta testers. So this is just Firaxis way oftelling everyone, watch it. Most likely some Atari exec called Firaxis and asked how the public beta test went and reminded them that he didn't want to see any negative info pop up on the net before the game was released.

	05-10-2003 23:55									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

This is the kind of thinking you get from goverments and military. Short sighted. Worried about bad press, when it will really have very little impact. The vast majority of their sells will go to the people that bought the original and they will not be swayed by any reports. They will want the addon and hope for the best. It always comes from some one not at the top.
These stories and actions are as bad for them as any negative story about the product itself.

	06-10-2003 00:10									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

to the leakers, i hope they are prosecuted fully.

to Firaxis who could have handled this in house without publicly announcing something.


Looks like the conquests release is going to be as messy as the PTW.

Too bad.

	06-10-2003 00:26									#18
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Ohh, not looking good. Just what the hell were the leakers thinking! Come on, if you don't care about any agreements, don't go beta-testing.

I only hope that the leaker wasn't some minor... I'd still hate to see a lawsuit filed against one.

One thought. How are they going to find out who the guilty person is? I mean, when I was doing game beta-testing (not with Firaxis, though), I wasn't required to give any personal info other than my shipping address. And being my paranoid self, I didn't use my home mailing address either...

But once again, a BIG thumbs down to the leaker(s).

	06-10-2003 01:37									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Just to clarify - we are not planning on sueing anyone and public beta testing is still considered an extremely useful and important part of the development process. My statement was intended to be a general warning to everyone (beta tester or someone who has acquired C3C assets). It was not in reference to a specific incident. Having done public beta testing, it is very exciting to be a part of the creation of a project. When you're reading the communities comments and you know the answer, its hard to keep the truth silent! Sueing is drastic, but if someone posted all of the assets for the entire public beta on the newsgroups and ftp sites - we would DEFINITELY take action to protect our (and your!!) hard work.

I can't even begin to express how amazing the public beta test experience was and how thankful I am to everyone who helped us create C3C. Please don't take the warning as a slight against your dedication and hard work!! Just be aware that 300 people can have very different morales and values!!

Thanks,

Jesse

Last edited by JesseSmith on 06-10-2003 at 03:05

	06-10-2003 01:50									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Also, I apologize for the harsh tone of the announcement - I forget how easy it is for words to be taken the wrong way. If someone had been posting content that would force legal action then it would have definitely been kept private - this was more of a pre-emptive message. An email to the beta tester distribution list would have been useful if I had one!

I miss the beta forum.

Last edited by JesseSmith on 06-10-2003 at 03:03

	06-10-2003 02:24									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

* Theseus is still SHOCKED not to have been a beta tester.

	06-10-2003 02:33									#22
	Get a bigger avatar today!

* Master Zen thinks Theseus would have made a great tester.

well... hopefully there'll be Civ4

	06-10-2003 02:41									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

On a serious note, thanks for the clarification Jesse, and I'm glad that the public beta has been a good experience... here's hoping it shows up in the quality of C3C!!

Last edited by Theseus on 06-10-2003 at 03:08

	06-10-2003 02:58									#24
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I could easily make some troll out of this...

But I won't...

	06-10-2003 03:00									#25
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The mericful Comrade Tassadar spares his wrath for now. For now....

	06-10-2003 03:06									#26
	Tired of ads?

Now all I need is the gone gold annoucement.

	06-10-2003 03:16									#27
	Suffering from ads?

Jesse, That happens not to select me to you my. Outside jokes.

He is bad that somebody can do that.

Since those images are you publish. so that you do not publish them officially and we see all them?

	06-10-2003 04:01									#28
	Increase Your PM Length

since no-one saw them then they aren't "there".

	06-10-2003 04:45									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Oh, and Jesse, about Marine+Berserk Armies...

	06-10-2003 06:40									#30
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

* Solomwi is still SHOCKED about Marine+Berserk Armies!

The outrage!