06-10-2003 20:33									#1
	Granary Limits Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

In my current games, I've tried to build granaries, but they seem to not work after the city is pop 6 or above, hence I usually sell them. There was no info in the pedia on this, is this normal?

Sorry, I'm play pre-ptw, but I do not remember the patch # (1.21?)

	06-10-2003 22:07									#2
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Granaries work even for pop 6+ settlements, but the foodbox size gets changed then, so it may be a bit difficult to see it. At pop 7, the foodbox size doubles to 40 and you start - thanks to the granary - with only half the full foodbox from pop 6 (that is 20/2=10), needing 30 food to grow to pop 8. But once you fill the whole box, the granary preserves half of it when the pop grows (to 8).

One more thing to keep in mind - if you are building settlers or workers (pop consuming units) in cities with pop 7 or more and the consumed pop points push your granaried city back to pop 6 max, you get the foodbox reset to 10/20.

And the last thing - to grow past pop 6, you have to have your city next to a river or build an aqueduct in it. If not, your foodbox will stay at 20/20 until you build the aqueduct.

EDIT: oops... oversought your notice about the version played. I suggest getting the 1.27f patch, just for sure. But as far as I know, there has never been a bug regarding granaries and pop 6+ cities.

Last edited by vondrack on 06-10-2003 at 22:23

	06-10-2003 22:50									#3
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Strange, cuz the food box was empty. This has happened more than once. My patch may be 1.27f, but I'll have to check that when I get home. I remember it being the third patch (but cannot remember the number).

	06-10-2003 23:55									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

CivIII last patch was 1.29F and that was a long time ago. If you are not on a river or do not have the duct, you can not grow pass size 6.

	07-10-2003 01:10									#5
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I am growing past size 6, but at that point the food box empties even though I have a granary. Also I checked, I have the latest patch because I can rename elites that give up a leader by winning a battle. (patch notes).

Also I'm not entirely sure where the granary fudge is. I though that it was 6 but it may be 7. I'll recheck it again tonight.

I just wanted to know if anyone else has seen this...or is it just me.

	07-10-2003 02:00									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Spaced Cowboy I am growing past size 6, but at that point the food box empties even though I have a granary...

Just to clarify, do you mean that your Granary empties by half (because of the city's population growth) or do you mean that your Granary EMPTIES (ie, no food at all contained in it the turn after it was showing up as full)?

If it is the first (empties by half, this is normal). If it is the later (empties out completely - this is abnormal). If your Granary is emptying out in the span of one turn...I haven't got clue, nor have I seen this before. Maybe your Granary has a hole in it.

	07-10-2003 05:17									#7
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Hmm, sorry guys, but the granary does empty completely from size 6 to 7.
After 7 it will be half-full again.

	07-10-2003 05:32									#8
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Well, there's still nuances uncovered almost every day about the game.... Thanks for the clarification Alva!

	07-10-2003 09:06									#9
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BTW, it will do so again going from 12 to 13 ;-)

	07-10-2003 12:42									#10
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that's right, the granary was patched to work this way when the city grows to the next stage in size.

I think it was done this way because it was easy to create a worker pump by having the city grow in one turn and worker built at the same time

	07-10-2003 19:04									#11
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Well that explains it. Thanks Alva. BTW I was seeing the thing empty on me, completely, that is what was freaking me out.

At least I know not to sell them now.

	08-10-2003 16:12									#12
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Hmmm... that's strange. Must be a vanilla civ3 thing, because in PtW, the granary causes the foodbox to be part-full even when going from pop 6 to 7.

Sorry for the confusion - it's a very very long time since I last played a vanilla civ3... btw, Space Cowboy - make sure you get Conquests, when they are released (late Oct / early Nov). You will not regret.

	08-10-2003 16:27									#13
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My version of PTW has granaries ineffective for the size 6-7 jump. How sure are you about that Vondrack?

	08-10-2003 16:42									#14
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I hadn't noticed problems around size 6 or 12 but in my PTW games some (but not all) of my cities that are over size 12 with hospitals and at or near the maximum population they have food for don't show the food box split in two in the city view screen even though they have a granary. I haven't paid much attention to what actually happens if they increase population at that point but granaries do seem to break down for very large (>20) cities.

	08-10-2003 16:59									#15
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quote: Originally posted by vulture My version of PTW has granaries ineffective for the size 6-7 jump. How sure are you about that Vondrack?

100%. I have saves and screenshots proving that. I am keeping very detailed statistics/records about the PBEM demogames (both for Legoland in PtWDG and Apolyton in ISDG) and those clearly show that with a granary (or The Pyramids), the food box goes 10/40 after growing from pop 6 to pop 7.

	08-10-2003 18:31									#16
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Hmmm... that's strange. Must be a vanilla civ3 thing, because in PtW, the granary causes the foodbox to be part-full even when going from pop 6 to 7. Sorry for the confusion - it's a very very long time since I last played a vanilla civ3... btw, Space Cowboy - make sure you get Conquests, when they are released (late Oct / early Nov). You will not regret.

Don't worry about that. PTW did not have enough goodies for me to care about a purchase (new civs were cool, but not enough for me). Conquest is a definate buy.

	08-10-2003 18:36									#17
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Assuming you do not build a Worker or Settler when a Granary city grows from size 6 to size 7, when growth is complete the Food box should contain exactly 10 Food. When the city grows, the amount of Food "in the Granary" does not grow, too. You'll have to fill the Food box to 40 Food the hard way (i.e. produce an additional 30 Food), at which point the Granary will settle to its 20 Food limit for sizes 7-12.

This is how it works in Play the World...not sure if there's a bug in stock Civ3 (doubt it, if everything is patched). There was an issue addressed in one of the first patches for Civ3 concerning the size 6 to size 7 transition because of a possible Worker-producing exploit, but I doubt that's what we're discussing here.


Dominae

	08-10-2003 20:44									#18
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I'm not sure if it was totally empty or there was 10 in it, but there was not line, which made me think that it was broken. the absence of the line was the thing that I noticed the most.

	08-10-2003 21:31									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Spaced Cowboy I am growing past size 6, but at that point the food box empties even though I have a granary. Also I checked, I have the latest patch because I can rename elites that give up a leader by winning a battle. (patch notes). Also I'm not entirely sure where the granary fudge is. I though that it was 6 but it may be 7. I'll recheck it again tonight. I just wanted to know if anyone else has seen this...or is it just me.

This is an issue that came up a long time ago, like about the very first patch. There was an expoit that allowed perpetual Workers to be built at the the city size you've mentioned, without a loss of population in the city. Firaxis fixed it by disabling the Granary temporarily at that point. So don't be selling them, they'll come back online later.

	08-10-2003 21:59									#20
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Spaced Cowboy I'm not sure if it was totally empty or there was 10 in it, but there was not line, which made me think that it was broken. the absence of the line was the thing that I noticed the most.

Like vondrack and I have pointed out, when a city reaches size 7 you only keep the "Granary Food" that was in the in Granary from when the city was size 6, that is, 10 Food. The extra 10 Food that fills the Granary at sizes 7+ does not magically appear out of nowhere. If it did, you would have an exploit on your hands:

1. Size 6 city with Granary grows to size 7.
2. Due to Granary*, the Food box has 20 Food (out of 40).
3. Worker completed.
4. Pop drops from 7 to 6.
5. Food box is now full.
6. City grows next turn with any Food surplus.

As you can see, you could generate a Worker per turn in a city with a Granary that produces at least ~8-10 Shields, regardless of its Food surplus (could be anything above zero). This was deemed an exploit and was fixed.


Dominae

	09-10-2003 11:35									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Spaced Cowboy I'm not sure if it was totally empty or there was 10 in it, but there was not line, which made me think that it was broken. the absence of the line was the thing that I noticed the most.

I think we've found the issue. Anytime the foodbox drops below half-full in a city with a granary (be it due to pollution, size transition or just poor management), the granary line disappears. There is still a functional granary in the city, and I don't know if there's a reason it happens, but the foodbox doesn't show it until your stores get above halfway again.