06-10-2003 23:34									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I think the way California is doing the recall the election is stupid. Recalling the governor because people don't like him is using a good idea ( the power to recall) for bad purposes. che, I think your saying the repulicans playing dirty is selective critizism. I know you don't like many dems either but dont be like Arianna Huffington and use it as an excuss to trash people. All of them are equally worthless. I watched the debate on TV and the only people there that actually talked about solutions were McClintock and the green canidate. The recall thing has to be gotten under control before this becomes a trend..

Well, the Dems, in denoucing the recall, have skillfully ignored that they themselves have tried the recall before and have not succeeded. They tried to recall Reagan, for example.

More double-standard here.

As well, Democrats have said they will file a recall immediately if Schwarzenegger wins.

More double-standard.

The Dems are a despicable party.

	06-10-2003 23:40									#32
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I'm not defending the dems Ned. I'm saying it's a bad idea for anyone to do unless the person they are recalling has committed a crime. Unless the man as committed a crime the people should live with their choice and vote him out of office if and when he runs again.

	07-10-2003 00:01									#33
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quote: Blair is a minor, unimportant figure, actually. Despite the hoopla given by some about Blair being allowed to get away with writing fake stories because he is Black, several white writers who made up stories are still on the NYT's staff, including the yahoo who flogged the Whitewater and Wen Ho Lee stories which both turned out to be completely eroneous. These, however, were not released as October surprises.

I agree, the big deal is not Blair, but the journalistic integrity of the NY Times. This just further destroys their credibility.

As for the Republicans not playing fair, why are you bringing Texas into a California issue? Again, are they not Democratic candidates profiting from the recall, just like Ahnold?

	07-10-2003 00:15									#34
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you have to add Gary Coleman's votes in with that. It is clear that many people are dissatisfied with the current leadership and want other alternatives such as Gary Coleman and Gallager.

	07-10-2003 00:18									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I'm not defending the dems Ned. I'm saying it's a bad idea for anyone to do unless the person they are recalling has committed a crime. Unless the man as committed a crime the people should live with their choice and vote him out of office if and when he runs again.

The problem with this is that you have to take the issue of "fault" to court in addition to getting the required number of votes on a recall petition. If you think about it, that places the issue of "fault" in the courts when it really is a political decision that should remain totally with the people.

We need more democracy in the United States, not less.

	07-10-2003 00:26									#36
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I think this recall is a very good thing, although I think the number of signatures required should be higher.

Why does anybody fear people voting, if the vote is above-board? This is a democracy after all. If there is a recall of the recall, then the voters will say "enough of this recall stuff" and it will eventually not be tried unless in extreme circumstances.

Either way, it's all good. Don't sweat it.

	07-10-2003 00:28									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Jack_www Actually Japher the rate payers are paying for the contracts not the tax payers.

That's not entirely true. The ratepayers are paying for guarantees, loans and credit purchases on behalf of Southern California Edison and particularly PG&E, but taxpayers are stuck directly on a number of other items, including many of the Cal. Dept. of Water Resources "reliability contracts" and other purchase agreements.

There is also an indirect effect on all state and local tax and special purpose agency user fee payers, in that the drops in California's bond rating affect the interest rates on many existing and all future bonds where the state's bond rating is used. There are a few thousand such special purpose agencies in California, and although most of them use conditional property tax assessments and special improvement project assessments to guarantee the bonds they issue, they are stuck using the state's bond rating as the rating services don't want to separately rate most of those agencies.

All of this direct and indirect cost to the taxpayer is hard to track, because it's non-general fund obligations, so not in the formal budget approved by the legislature, but it exists and it is a part of the state's on-going operating costs and tax burden.

	07-10-2003 00:32									#38
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Thanks MtG...

Californian's pay more for everything. We are constantly getting screwed (at least lately) with elevated costs in everything from utilities to consumer goods. Companies just feel that can do this, for some reason. They say, hey, they have more money lets charge them more. Then they ignore cost of living standards and we get screwed... Even Microsoft was in on this game... I wonder how far the waters run...

I blame Davis!

	07-10-2003 00:36									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Well, the Dems, in denoucing the recall, have skillfully ignored that they themselves have tried the recall before and have not succeeded. They tried to recall Reagan, for example. More double-standard here. As well, Democrats have said they will file a recall immediately if Schwarzenegger wins. More double-standard. The Dems are a despicable party.

And of course, the saintly party of God, mom, apple pie and the flag never resorts to double standards, inconsistency, dishonesty, or anything else underhanded to gain an advantage.

	07-10-2003 00:39									#40
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Hey, don't fault the GOP for successfully associating itself with God, apple pie and mom!

	07-10-2003 00:50									#41
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quote: We are constantly getting screwed (at least lately) with elevated costs in everything from utilities to consumer goods.

You still owe British Columbia cash for the electricity sold last year during all those brownouts. When the power companies went belly-up, they cancelled the outstanding Canadian contracts.

So I wouldn't complain about high electricity costs, if I were you.

	07-10-2003 01:07									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi You still owe British Columbia cash for the electricity sold last year during all those brownouts. When the power companies went belly-up, they cancelled the outstanding Canadian contracts. So I wouldn't complain about high electricity costs, if I were you.

Actually, that would be "PG&E owe[d] British Columbia" but US bankruptcy law allows bankrupt debtors to repudiate executory contracts. Something I'd assume the Canadian lawyers knew when they entered the deal.

	07-10-2003 01:52									#43
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Actions have consequences...

I don't think BC's selling any more electricity to California power utilities. Why do business with a bad debt?

Less supply will start driving up the prices, as Japher is starting to notice.

We'd be happy to sell you folks lots of electricity. We'd just like to be paid at some point.

	07-10-2003 03:17									#44
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The Repugs have started something ugly, which is now going to be used perpetually as a weapon by both sides. The recall succeeded because a million pumped millions of dollars in, hiring out of state consultants to gather signatures. Though it tapped into a deep dissatisfaction, I doubt it was capable of sustaining itself without money and outsiders.

First, if its in the state constitution, its a little hard to see how its playing dirty.
Second, in the last election in Maryland's 8th Cong dist (where I live), more than 2/3 of the Democrat money came from out of state. Unfortunately they succeeded in unseating a moderate Republican incumbent.
Third, if it were up to me I would toughtn the criteria for recall, and not vote for this one.

	07-10-2003 03:32									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Adam Smith Second, in the last election in Maryland's 8th Cong dist (where I live), more than 2/3 of the Democrat money came from out of state

Can't say that Democratic shenanigans have me at ease either.

	07-10-2003 03:35									#46
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat And of course, the saintly party of God, mom, apple pie and the flag never resorts to double standards, inconsistency, dishonesty, or anything else underhanded to gain an advantage.

You got it.

Well, the right answer is that any Repub. politician that would do such crap should not be nominted. The last Repub. who did get nominated who played hardball was Richard Nixon. But his tactics disgusted me.

	07-10-2003 03:38									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The last Repub. who did get nominated who played hardball was Richard Nixon. But his tactics disgusted me.

Have you so soon forgotten Bush's tactics against McCain in South Carolina and Michigan?

	07-10-2003 04:06									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Actions have consequences... I don't think BC's selling any more electricity to California power utilities. Why do business with a bad debt? Less supply will start driving up the prices, as Japher is starting to notice. We'd be happy to sell you folks lots of electricity. We'd just like to be paid at some point.

Utility transactions are wonderful things. Sell yours to Bonneville, they can sell their excess to Sierra Pacific, Sierra Pacific can do an exchange deal with UP&L since they're both Pacificorp subsidiaries, UP&L can supply WAPA contractors and we can take the power from WAPA. Trouble is, the economy is slow, the droughts in the west are over for the time being, and summers have been relatively mild, so there's no big demand for imported power.

It's going to be quite a while before demand goes up high enough to drive prices up.

	07-10-2003 04:14									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Ned You got it. Well, the right answer is that any Repub. politician that would do such crap should not be nominted. The last Repub. who did get nominated who played hardball was Richard Nixon. But his tactics disgusted me.

How about Reagan ****ing over Goldwater over Goldwater's endorsement of Jerry Ford in '76?

How about the new Reaganite RNC deciding to purge several of the party's senior moderates, including Birch Bayh, and Frank Church?

How about House Minority Leader Gerald R. Ford threating to impeach a Supreme Court Justice (Douglas) if the Senate didn't confirm Nixon appointee G. Harold Carswell?

If you really want, I can dig Republican campaign, national and state committee, and officeholder dirt all day, all week, all month, and not come close to exhausting the supply.

Both parties are loaded with venal *******s.

	07-10-2003 04:45									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident you have to add Gary Coleman's votes in with that. It is clear that many people are dissatisfied with the current leadership and want other alternatives such as Gary Coleman and Gallager.

Good post. One reason that I couldn't support Arnold is that his sense of humor just isn't as good as Gallagher's. He's ok at the action stuff, but we're talking about a governor, not a president. So I'm backing Gallagher for California governor.

	07-10-2003 07:06									#51
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I think that the people of California don't get it. It's not all Davis's fault. And it's definitely not all Bush's fault. My Catalina weekend freinds somehow buy the "George Bush caused our energy crisis line." It's the Cali fault for thinking that they could enter long term contractrs and only have upside. For not letting prices float to consumers when supply got tight. (lack of price-led demand feedback ended up costing them way more in the end.) For making it an AQMD nightmare to get more baseload constructed, etc. etc.

They're just grasshoppers who want to get mad at the ant.

	07-10-2003 07:37									#52
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I think that it should be pointed out that Arnold's heavy accent in the 1970s might have confused a listner into thinking that he said "did" instead of "didn't". I seem to recall that he had that problem on one of his appearences on "Saturday Night Live".

	07-10-2003 07:40									#53
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Both parties are loaded with venal *******s.

Amen, Brother! Preach it!

	07-10-2003 08:11									#54
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quote: And I admired basically people who are powerful people, like Kennedy. Who people listen to and just wait until he comes out with telling them what to do. People like that I admire a lot."

Heil Ted! Wtf is this guy talking about? He sounds like he admires autocrats. Yeah Arnold, everyone's just waiting for you and Teddy to tell us what to do...

	07-10-2003 08:14									#55
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quote: It is clear that many people are dissatisfied with the current leadership and want other alternatives such as Gary Coleman and Gallager.

I'd vote for either of these guys before the frontrunners, even McClintock for whom I do have respect.

	07-10-2003 13:19									#56
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This is pretty horrible journalism on the part of the NYTimes, even by their increasingly low standards. Thank god for the Washington Post.

	07-10-2003 22:58									#57
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Al Franken on the tonight show still said Swcharenegger praised Hitler as fact

but other than that he was fairly funny. I liked him on SNL