07-10-2003 13:25									#1
	Bye bye PtW Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm currently trying to set up an epic "Bye bye PtW" game for the time after AU 210, and I think I should try something new, at least for me. I want to be it a game on a very big map, including all 24 civs. Here's what I'm up to do:


Map settings
------------
- huge 200x200, 24 civs, raging barbarians
- continents, normal humidity, temperate
- world age 3 bill years, given the map size this makes beautiful, very rough terrain
- Tech rate increased 25% for map size and another 25% to slow down tech race, makes +62.5%
- Minimal research time 5 turns, maximal research time 50 turns

Terrain changes (very important!)
---------------------------------
- No cities on jungle, forest, desert (yes on floodplains), tundra and mountains
- No roads on mountains. Stock mountains given +1 commerce.
- All mountain resources except gold moved to hills.
- Ocean impassable for wheeled units.

Unit changes, mostly from the AU mod, some highlights
-----------------------------------------------------
- Knight level units (except Keshiks), Cavalry level units and all modern units wheeled
- Keshik has movement cost removed at mountains and hills, War Elephant at forest and jungle
- Paratroopers 8.8.2, +1hp, cost 12
- Marines 10.6.1, +1hp, cost 12
- Land Bombard units and Leaders can be airlifted
- Cruise Missiles can be loaded
- Air unit and missile range increased 30-50%
- Stealth aircraft can't be carrier based
- Stealth fighter has lethal sea bombardement, Stealth Bomber even land and sea
- Ship movement except Galleys and Ironclads increased by 1-2 points
- Destroyers detect subs and can carry 1 tactical missile, nuke subs can carry 2
- Galleys and Ironclads are wheeled. No suicide galleys, period.

Still undecided
---------------
- Should I eliminate railroads from the game and increase the road movement to 4 or 5? That gives better military tactics, hands down. The production and food bonuses RR gives need to be replaced by moderately increasing some basic stats instead.

What do I expect from the game?
-------------------------------
- I don't aim for killer AIs. Not all 23 AIs can be killers. Some will be huge, some pitiful small due to terrain constraints. C'est la vie.
- No roads on mountains makes up for some interesting tactical moves and city placement at strategical important points. Mountain chains are gigantic, given the map settings
- No cities on desert and tundra keeps the AI to waste settlers on crap cities. Want that oil or the luxury? Build a colony, protect it and guard the road.
- No cities on forest means: Don't cheat and plant forest on tundra, then settle.
- I don't want to conquer the map. That would be an insane slugfest. I'm even thinking to switch off all victory conditions and just to power-play till 2050, or till I get sick of the game.


So what do you guys think of these conditions. I would especially appreciate the opinion of our economy buffs and AI experts, what concerns the city building constraints, the road issue on mountains, and maybe the open railroad question.

	07-10-2003 14:31									#2
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I'll need a faster PC and a time-bubble!

I like the colonies idea and the huge tracts of unsettled land. The movement suggestions remind me CTP and I can see the military interest of removing RR, and the limiting effect on modern maneuvrability, but not so sure about the 'shifting the basic stats' without a clearer picture.

As for the victory conditions or lack thereof - the thought that my only goal is to get sick of the game doesn't quite fire the imagination...


(typo edited)

	07-10-2003 14:32									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Sounds very interesting indeed.

quote: - Ocean impassable for wheeled units.

I'm not sure I understand this one. Surely wheeled units can't travel on oceans anyway. Is this a typo or am I dumb?

I especially like the restrictions you're placing on mountain movement. Given the size and age of the map it should make for some very interesting situations (and some really snasty start locations for some poor Civ that starts in a valley between two ranges).

If I were you I wouldn't touch RR unless someone else comes along to tell you about their experiences with making similar changes. Having 5-move roads and increasing base stats of terrain has the potential to change the game so much that it gets ruined. Not the sort of thing I'd want to mess around with, but YMMV of course.

Are you planning to post the 4000bc save of your game here for others to try?

(are you going to give the Korean UU lethal land bombardment?)

	07-10-2003 15:06									#4
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The problem with no roads on mountains is that the map often throws up sections of continents isolated by mountain chains. In reality there would be a road or rail connection built regardless of cost, but not roads on every mountain. I don't think this can be duplicated in the game though.

Making oceans impassable to galleys works well with the wheeled flag - until you are the poor sucker stuck on a small continent and can't get off.

You might be better advised to give lethal sea bombardment to bombers and/or jet fighters, not stealth aircraft - that way the AI may reach the necessary tech and make use of the units whereas I rarely see AI stealth aircraft even very late in my games.

If you have a way of preventing particular air units basing on carriers I would like to know what it is - I have been trying to solve that one for some time. I think I have an answer but haven't tested it yet.

Probably worth allowing cruise missiles to be airlifted as well as loaded.

	07-10-2003 15:24									#5
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Cort Haus: There's always the 2050AD histograph victory I can aim for. I want to play the game not primarily to win, but to get a nice experience, which will reward me for the time invested.

FP: I make galleys and ironclads "wheeled" too, so they can't get on ocean. Makes frigates longer useful. Ironclads are for the coast guard. I don't plan to publish the save, but will if there is interest. It would have to be in different difficulties, too. I can, however, publish the scenario, but then everyone gets a different map. But that's ok, it is too big for an AU course anyway.

Cerberus: I'm kind of an egoist in this game and don't set it up for AI's sake. It is not supposed to be a big challenge for strategical masterminds, it is supposed to be a fun game and an awesome experience. The AI doesn't need to have fun, so there . So I don't care if some pityful AI (one of 23) gets stuck on a small island, and if I do so myself, well, I can either stick it out or just restart.

	07-10-2003 16:03									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

Looks interesting. Post the save and I'll play it.

No roads on mountains: not very logical; make it 3-5x the usual number of turns to be built.
RR: yes. RR=roads x3-5 movement but no 'troops teleportation'. This is something pretty stupid in Civ 3 (you stack 20 tanks, disband all other units in your cities and save lots of gold).

	07-10-2003 16:35									#7
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Mountain Sage: I thought of this, making roads on mountains very expensive, but then the AI would waste a lot of workers to road every mountain at the expense of the other terrain improvement. Not good. Plus, with lots of mountains roaded, the need to build foot units to fight on mountain ranges would vanish.

I would love to play with RR's, which increase road movement without making it infinite. Unfortunately, there is no such option in Civ3. That's one of the very few things I like in the CtP series better. That's why I'm considering to have roads with 4 or 5 movement, but no railroads instead. But that isn't yet decided, I'm just collecting opinions here.

	07-10-2003 17:42									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Cort Haus: There's always the 2050AD histograph victory I can aim for. I want to play the game not primarily to win, but to get a nice experience, which will reward me for the time invested.

Quite right

Its also fun sometimes to see how the AI gets on with a situation.

Slightly OT - did you like the CTP combat system with the combined arms? It worked early on, but ultimately you just had to build great stacks of those mech dudes and go stomping around over everyone! Ah - memories...

	07-10-2003 17:44									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus Slightly OT - did you like the CTP combat system with the combined arms? It worked early on, but ultimately you just had to build great stacks of those mech dudes and go stomping around over everyone! Ah - memories...

(before anyone else gets there)

... a bit like Modern Armour then.

	07-10-2003 17:47									#10
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I like the CtP combat system better than the Civ3 one. Not only because of true combined arms, but also because of the limited movement (10 moves per move point is all you can get, and that is already in a future age), the zone of control and the limited number of unit you can have at one tile (9 in CivCtP, 12 in CtP2). It's just not realistic to have the whole army of a country at one tile .

	07-10-2003 18:29									#11
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Cool stuff, SR.

The mountain thing is a bit extreme, but I see what you're trying to do. Is there no way to tie roadbuilding on mountains to a tech? Too bad the "wheeled" thing is for mountains AND jungles, otherwise you could make workers wheeled, and create an "engineer" available later in the game that isn't wheeled. Then workers can't road mountains simply because they can't move onto them, and engineers can come later and do the job (as well as RR for the production bonus).

No cities on desert or tundra? I know you are trying to cut down on the AI's worthless towns, but a civ that starts in the far north or south (tundra) or near the equator (desert/jungle) could really be screwed.

I like the idea of having to chop forest or jungle before settling though.

The "wheeled" tag on galleys & ironclads is a great one. I like that a lot.

RRs... hmm. I think you have it: increase the movement on roads (especially given the size of the map) to 4.

-Arrian

	07-10-2003 18:42									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Arrian The mountain thing is a bit extreme, but I see what you're trying to do. Is there no way to tie roadbuilding on mountains to a tech? Too bad the "wheeled" thing is for mountains AND jungles, otherwise you could make workers wheeled, and create an "engineer" available later in the game that isn't wheeled. Then workers can't road mountains simply because they can't move onto them, and engineers can come later and do the job (as well as RR for the production bonus).

To create an extra unit is a good idea. I will think into this and make some tests. Btw, in my description I forgot to mention, that the War Elephant can't be wheeled either, or he can't enter the jungle, which movement cost he has removed.

quote: No cities on desert or tundra? I know you are trying to cut down on the AI's worthless towns, but a civ that starts in the far north or south (tundra) or near the equator (desert/jungle) could really be screwed.

I ran some tests in debug mode, and yes, there are a few civs screwed, usually around 4. But it's 4 out of 23 , so it doesn't really matter.

What I also want, is to create unsettled areas. First, because the barbarian threat persists and you have to protect your workers against horsemen, second, to give airfields some use. It buggers me greatly, that you can build them only in own or unsettled territory. Since in normal games there is no unsettled territory and in own territory I have cities, there's no room for airforce bases. I also like the idea of having to build colonies. I know, that the AI will do it.

	07-10-2003 18:48									#13
	Got spare money?

Playing a game with large sections of unsettled terrain in the later ages will be a great novelty in itself. Sounds good.

	07-10-2003 21:23									#14
	Remove this text

quote: - No roads on mountains. Stock mountains given +1 commerce.

Now why didn't I think of that ... as an alternative to my mod's "Mountains are Impassable (no ifandorbuts)." Thumbs up on all the terrain changes (I hadn't disallowed cities in jungle yet), wheeled horse and motorized/mech units, .... Even a large map would do fine!

Not sure which I would prefer re the mountains. You often have mountain passes with my mod, and yes there are isolated cities. In my current game I have only sea access to one of my core cities on the same continent (when I don't have a RoP).

It's all about not having the choice of moving large formations through the mountains, having terrain really influencing strategy. Whether just disallowing roads would be satisfactory, I do not know.

	07-10-2003 21:39									#15
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This sounds like an interesting game SR. My only concern is my computer speed. My computer wasn't up to snuff to play AU402. I was getting 30+ minute turns in the 1500's and eventually had to quit.

	07-10-2003 23:07									#16
	Remove this text

I think the biggest hit on AU402 was all the water. It caused lots of contients and lots of harbors. I think this was the main reason that turns could take a long time, with 24 civs.
It still took about 26 minutes on my 3.02 GH pc, if a city went down or was founded. If not, then some turns even late in the game could go in less than a minute. If a city was found/lost and wars were going on it could be painful. The same turns took nearly an hour on my 1.7 GH rig, if those events occurred.

	09-10-2003 17:16									#17
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The thing I worry about with huge maps and all civs included is that trading tech becomes rediculous. You can get several times the research cost of a tech by selling it over and over again, as we found in the AU game. This hobbles the AI and makes victory certain, if also painfully long in achieving it due to the processing time needed. Maybe you can develop an idea for getting around that, with prohibition of the human player selling tech the only dumb thought that occurs to me.

	11-10-2003 05:40									#18
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You must have a kickass computer but let us informet about that

	11-10-2003 07:23									#19
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I am interested in this. Sir Ralph, could you PM me when you are starting?

	12-10-2003 14:47									#20
	Inflate your Upload Space

Ok, I finished the mod. Here are all changes I made, and the mod itself, for those, who want to try a random map. The mod allows every map size, even tiny, just these map sizes are larger than their originals and allow more civs.

Bye Bye PtW mod


General Settings
================
- Minimum Research Time 5
- Maximum Research Time 50

Terrain
=======
- Added the ability of hills to have uranium and gems
- Removed all resources except gold from mountains
- Removed the roading bonus from mountains and added 1 commerce to the standard tile values
- Removed the Allow Cities flag from desert, tundra, forest and jungle
- Made ocean impassable for wheeled units

Units
=====
- Marine changed to 10.6.1, +1 HP, cost 12
- Paratrooper changed to 8.8.2, +1 HP, cost 12, range 8
- Guerilla has hidden nationality and can build forts
- Archer and Bowman have range 0 bombardment of 2
- Longbowman and Berserk have range 0 bombardment of 4
- Knights and Samurai are wheeled
- Keshiks ignore movement cost on mountains and hills
- War Elephants ignore movement cost in forest and jungle
- Cavalry, Cossack and Sipahi are wheeled
- Tank, Panzer, Mechanized Infanry, Modern Armor are wheeled
- Radar Artillery is wheeled and has movement 2
- Cruise Missile is wheeled, can be loaded and have range 4
- Galley is wheeled
- Caravel has 4 movement
- Frigate, Galleon, Man-O-War and Submarine have 5 movement
- Ironclad is wheeled
- Carrier and Battleship and Nuclear Submarine have 6 movement
- Transport, Destroyer and AEGIS Cruiser have 7 movement
- Destroyers can detect invisible and carry 1 tactical missile
- Nuclear Submarine can carry 2 missiles
- Fighter has range 6
- Bomber, Helicopter, Jet Fighter and F-15 have range 8
- Stealth Fighter has range 12, bombard strength 6, lethal sea bombardement, has his load flag

removed and can intercept
- Stealth Bomber has range 16, lethal sea and land bombardement, has his load flag removed
- Catapult, Cannon, Hwach'a, Artillery, Radar Artillery and Leader can be airlifted

World Sizes
===========
- Tiny 80 x 80 6 civs 250 TechRate
- Small 100 x 100 9 civs 312 TechRate
- Standard 120 x 120 12 civs 375 TechRate
- Large 160 x 160 18 civs 500 TechRate
- Huge 200 x 200 24 civs 625 TechRate

Attachment: byebyeptw.zip
This has been downloaded 8 time(s).

	12-10-2003 14:53									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

And for those who want to have the same game like me, here's my start. Settings are huge (200x200), 24 civs, raging barbarians, continents, normal, temperate, 3 billion years, emperor. And since I didn't play them since that famous early AU game (was it AU102? Somewhere there), it's the Germans for me. They have an ok builder and a good warmonger trait and an awesome UU so late, that I actually may make it through the industrial age without abandoning the game, just to get it.

Attachment: bismarck of the germans, 4000 bc.sav
This has been downloaded 12 time(s).

	12-10-2003 14:55									#22
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That's how it looks:

Attachment: byebyeptw.jpg
This has been downloaded 395 time(s).

	12-10-2003 15:24									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Wow, Looks fantastic. Ive really been looking forward to this. Thanks!

	13-10-2003 00:41									#24
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I don't know how soon I'll be able to get to this (I'll be busy and then on vacation most of the week), but it definitely sounds interesting.

	13-10-2003 03:40									#25
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I know you already got started, but I would recommend getting rid of the no cities on forests or jungles. The AI will not know to chop down forests/jungles to create a suitable city spot...

	13-10-2003 07:40									#26
	Re: Bye bye PtW Got spare money?

quote: - Stealth aircraft can't be carrier based

How do you plan on doing this? I've tried taking out the load capability but they still seem to be able to load on carriers (perhaps this a bug with past versions, haven't tested it with 1.27).

	13-10-2003 10:57									#27
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Wow, first class guests here. Hi Soren, I'm having fun with your AI .

I used my free Sunday (and the fact, that my wife took care for the guests we have at the moment), and played till deep in the medieval age. My experiences so far:

- The AI is doing fine. Some AIs are (as expected) fledgling, but that happens under normal map conditions too. Others are wealthy and strong. I am on a large continent with 10 AIs. Mostly European ones, since cultural linking is on. England (wow!) and France are the tech leaders and very strong. Russia and Spain are fairly strong too, the rest are mediocre.

- The AI is definitely hurt by the city building restriction, but then, so am I. Even if you have brains and the AI only some formulas and algorithms, chopping lots of forest and clearing jungle with a non-industrious civ isn't exactly fun if you are REXing. I'm thinking of dropping the restriction to settle at forest for the next game (probably named "Hello Conquests"). It was primarily designed to prevent the human player from cheating (planting on tundra and then settling). But the restriction on jungle is fine.

- Playing civ with large unsettled areas is fun! I have to repeat this and to emphasize: Playing civ with large unsettled areas is fun! I have a vast (several hundred tiles) jungle to my south. It is full of barbarians and soldiers of literally all countries are roaming there. The AI uses jungle tactics very well! If some of her medinfs or longbowmen are hurt, they run away from my knights in the jungle. And laugh at me from there, I can hear it.

- The AI is aggressive like hell. I never experienced this! I'm basically under siege for the whole game so far. In the ancient age a 4-civ alliance attacked me (the usual extortion thing with being sent to hell). That was fine with me, because 3 of the civs were on the other side of the vast continent, and the 4th was my neighbor Carthage, whom I wanted to attack anyway. Took 2 cities. After this, in the north the Vikings and Spaniards were attacking, with large streams of pikes, archers and medinfs.

In the south I'm under permanent russian siege. It's amazing! I never saw anything similar. Russia attacks, I push back the attack, take a city or 2 and make peace, as usual. But 1 or 2 turns after the peace treaty, Russia sneak attacks me again! She repeated this 3 times already! The first 2 times I extorted gold per turn and went to her limit with my demands. I thought this is the reason for the quick attack and made the 3rd peace treaty on the even. But no, it'S 2 turns after we signed peace, and her knights are again at my territory. What shall I do? I will have to wipe her out, although I don't want to do so.

- The load flag trick with the carrier based planes does not work.

	13-10-2003 11:05									#28
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph - The load flag trick with the carrier based planes does not work.

Damn

you know any other sneaky way to get certain plains not be carrier-based?

	13-10-2003 11:33									#29
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Sir Ralph, give a screenie or two now and again.

	13-10-2003 12:25									#30
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen you know any other sneaky way to get certain plains not be carrier-based?

Unfortunately not.

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Sir Ralph, give a screenie or two now and again.

Will do.