13-10-2003 20:29									#31
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'd forgotten about that, but you're right Scowler. Thanks.

	13-10-2003 23:30									#32
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I thought the HMs were bastard Bene Gesserits. I remember the fish speakers being treated as inconsequential in Chapterhouse Dune. I think there was a specific dialog that had two BGs talking about potential allies and dismissing the FS for this reason. Did I miss the ball completely on this?

	14-10-2003 00:02									#33
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I thought Honoured Matre was a derivation of Reverend Mother...

	14-10-2003 00:11									#34
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

They are a combination of both Fish Speaker and BG forms and rituals, actually. It is never truly explained where or how the HM's evolved as they did so in the unknown space of the Scattering, it was just made clear that they were kicking the BG's butts.

	14-10-2003 00:22									#35
	Got spare money?

quote: Fish Speakers, that was the revelation the Bene Gesserit absorbed with fascination. They had suspected, but Murbella gave them confirmation. Fish Speaker democracy became Honoured Matre autocracy. No more doubts. "The tyranny of the minority cloaked in the mask of the majority," Odrade called it, her voice exultant. "Downfall of democracy. Either overthrown by its own excesses or eaten away by bureaucracy." Idaho could hear the Tyrant in that judgement. If history had any repetitive patterns, here was one. A drumbeat of repetition. First, a Civil Service law masked in the lie that it was the only way to correct demogogic excesses and spoils[sic.] systems. Then the accumulation of power in places voters could not touch. And finally, aristocracy.

Chapter House Dune p. 364 (New English Library, 1986)

A quote for our time perhaps...

	15-10-2003 20:50									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Ok, here's another: Why did Paul decide to run into the wasteland? Was it to escape a future he created for himself or to create the possibility of the future Leto II foresaw in his visions?

	16-10-2003 02:21									#37
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Paul went into the wastelands for a number of reasons:

1. At the end of CoD Leto states that Paul couldn't handle doing what had to be done to avoid Kralizek, so he gave up the reigns of power so that his newborn son could give it a go. His blindness gave him a legitimate excuse to do so, and he took it.

2. To preserve the Atreides legitimacy over the Fremen, Maud'dib had to walk into the desert as any blind Fremen would have been required to. Had Paul not done this, the Atreides could've faced a rebellion in the Fedayen. This is the reason given in Dune Messiah and it is kind of lame imho, but perhaps others buy it.

Paul did gain the ability to control his prescience to such a degree that he could see the future as it almost happens, to a point where it appears that he actually does regain his sight - he can grasp objects handed to him, walk unassisted about a room, etc. He loses this ability before the end of the book though, loses it or gives it up.

The central conflict/theme in the series is, imho, that the using prescience on the scale that the Atreides used it was almost inevitably to cause a war so destructive it was the essential end of humanity - but to maintain their current civilization, they had no choice but to continue using prescience (and melange, of course). Paul got a glimpse of this catch-22 in Dune*, but by the beginning of Dune: Messiah he had almost convinced himself that the warring Atreides banners he glimpsed in his visions had already happened, in the Fremen's subjugation of the Sardaukar and the Empire.

But by the end of Messiah, this view was no longer tenable and Paul realized that he was in a bind: He had to continue to rule by the use of prescience, but the use of prescience was (and most likely already had, by the time he made this realization) to bring about the destruction of mankind in a final war. He understood that the only means for mankind to remain as is was to use means and techniques that he did not have the guts to do: he would have to become the Ultimate Tyrant, one that wouldn't mind sterilizing whole planets in an effort to prevent the final battle, nor extending his lifespan in ways that dilutes his humanity.

Seeing the disaster he had created, his response was to walk away and dump the responsibility of cleaning up the mess to his son. Whatta guy.

*And I must allow for the fact that Herbert likely wasn't thinking about Children of Dune or God: Emperor when he wrote the original story: it's obvious that he took a number of elements in Dune and extended them beyond their original meanings. This is one of them.

	16-10-2003 07:57									#38
	Re: The Apolyton Science Fiction Discussion Group: The Dune Chronicles Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by JohnT I’m sure everybody has read the first book, probably the second book (possibly the most boring and depressing sequel in science fiction up to that time), and you probably gave up Dune sometime during books 3-5, picked it up again a few years later determined to plow through it (including Chapterhouse, and having done so then promptly forgot all that weird crap about the Honored Matres and the Scattering, remembering only the bizarre sex scene between Duncan and that HM who then became the BG’s reverend mother in the final novel, after the death of Darwi Odrade. Or maybe not - but that's how I read the books, and I'm willing to wager that a couple of you did it the same way.

I've read the first book, then got bored with the second right after the first chapter.

The reason I keep from finishing the series is because of discussions like these- that keep telling me how disappointing the rest can be. :|

	16-10-2003 08:58									#39
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Like a lot of people I got bored with the depressing sequel but because of this discussion and the richness of the culture that Herbert sets up I'm going to give the third one a go if I can find a copy here.

Dune is one of the few series where I'd really prefer just to read a straight-up history of the setting rather than a novel set in it. The little historical chapter header quotes are far and away my favorite part of the books.

	16-10-2003 10:06									#40
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

One interesting thing I noticed about the first book was regarding Duke Leto I. Not only did he know he was walking into a trap by going to Arrakis, but he also knew he wasn't going to walk out of it alive. The evidence I have for this is that Duke Leto thinks to himself at one point that he will never again see Caladan. Given that Caladan was taken over by a noble house other than the Harkonnens, I don't see why Leto wouldn't eventually have been able to at least visit there again, unless there is some convention in the Dune universe that I don't know about.

The other compelling evidence of Leto's knowledge regarding his future likely death is that in the same passage in which the duke is thinking to himself regarding Paul "I may think of Arrakis as a hell I've reached before death, but he must find here something that will inspire him."

The logical explanation is that Leto doesn't believe he will live long enough to arrange such a visit and be confident that his holdings on Arakkis would remain secure while he was gone. Given that if he lived, it was highly probable he would be able to achieve victory over the Harkonnens, it appears to me that Leto knew he was going to be killed sooner or later, and he expected his son would have an opportunity to turn the Freemen into a powerful army. The only surprise to Leto was that his death and the defeat of his house occured so quickly.

	16-10-2003 13:42									#41
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by JohnT Bumpity - c'mon people, this is a CLASSIC. Where are Ming, Rah, and the other supposed sci-fi buffs? Not commenting on Perdido Street Station is one thing, but not commenting on Dune? Anyway, another thing that I liked about the series is how Herbert used both the passage of time and new characters to destroy the cherished assumptions of previous protagonists. In Dune he built the world and the mythology of Paul Atreides, the prescient leader of fanatical fighting men conditioned exquisitely to believe in the rightness of their Maud'dib. In Dune Messiah Herbert started attacking Maud'dib from within and without, from Pauls inner torment at what he unleashed to the stoneburner attack. This process was completed in Children of Dune, where Leto II is pressed to finish destroying the mythology of Maud'dib in order to save interstellar civilization from the collapse of the spice trade brought about by the successful terraforming of Arrakis. Leto II ends CoD building up his own mythology at the expense of his fathers by using the sandworms to change his body into a form that will last for over 3,500 years - long past the time when all sandworms will be extinct. He does this so that he can use his prescience to guide mankind safely around the upcoming Armageddon (Kralizek? Typhoon war of some sort) that he foresees in mankinds future if the spice isn't preserved by means of force and religion. God: Emperor begins the deconstruction of Leto: II. Tired, old, agelessly cynical, Leto is beginning to look forward to his death and to releasing mankind from the bonds of his authority. He has spent 3,500 years guiding mankind around Kralizeck and is now in the process of purposely revealing chinks in his armor so that his enemies can safely strike at him. He has but one requirement: that he dies in water, so that the sandworms in his body can break up and start the re-desertification of Arrakis that is needed to fuel the upcoming Scattering. The deconstruction of Leto II is completed in Heretics of Dune, while the Atreidesian focus of the story lands on Darwi Odrade, long-time descendent of Siona Atreides and Duncan Idaho. HoD opens thousands of years in the future, with Leto II being a fading memory and people focused on more important concerns, especially the return of some groups from the Scattering, including the Honored Matres. HoD also follows the story of a special Duncan Idaho ghola and an Honored Matre whom Duncan persuades to switch sides. In Chapterhouse Dune Darwi Odrade is removed (or dies, I don't recall) and the above-mentioned Honored Matre is made Mother Superior or whatever of the Bene Gesserit, a BG pounded nearly into submission by the superior training and numbers of the HM's. The pattern is kind of lost in this book as the following novel was left unwritten. However, at the end of Chapterhouse we are left with the knowledge that the Honered Matres weren't expanding, they were fleeing, and were going to use the Old Empire as the base of their final counter-attack - Kralizek returned despite the machinations of Leto II and Paul. The final book was to be the Final Battle, with a combined HM/BG force fighting a return of the machines from the Butlerian Jihad. This is purely speculation on my part, but there are a lot of signals in the long story of Dune that point to a final war. Too bad it's going to be left to the hacks of Anderson and Jr. to depict the war that even Leto II feared.

I was banned when this was first posted

I liked the 1st book best

than the 4th

the 5th and 6th next

than the 3rd

than the 2nd

I always wondered what was up with those two who allowed the fleeing ship to escape at the end

they dont' seem to be machines

doesn't darwi sort of come back as basically a kid, but with all the memories and abilities of his old self?

I remember that as being sort of weird

I haven't read any but the first in quite a while

and the first was by far the best

Jon Miller

	16-10-2003 16:35									#42
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

i'll link to it, because it's got f**king in the text.




edit: seeing as rah's posted a pic with it here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=99313 ... i've put the image up.

Last edited by Q Cubed on 16-10-2003 at 18:01

	16-10-2003 18:08									#43
	Got spare money?

By coincidence, there is a thread discussing Leto's Golden Path currently on the SDMB.

	16-10-2003 18:17									#44
	Re: Re: The Apolyton Science Fiction Discussion Group: The Dune Chronicles Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Anun Ik Oba I've read the first book, then got bored with the second right after the first chapter. The reason I keep from finishing the series is because of discussions like these- that keep telling me how disappointing the rest can be. :|

It all depends upon what you want. You know how metaphysical and philosophical the first book was? The rest get even worse: if you are the sort of science fiction fan who wants action and space battles and Very Exciting People who scurry around doing Very Exciting Things, then the sequels of Dune will be a major disappointment. Otoh, if you don't mind what amounts to a 2,000 page discourse on one mans opinion about politics, religion, environmentalism, and a whole host of issues wrapped up in a convoluted plot that becomes severly disjointed between books 4 and 5, then the Dune Chronicles is your cup of tea.

Personally I enjoy both kinds... but, yeah, the sequels of Dune do take some effort to appreciate. I do believe that they are worth the effort, however.

	16-10-2003 18:22									#45
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Mordoch One interesting thing I noticed about the first book was regarding Duke Leto I. Not only did he know he was walking into a trap by going to Arrakis, but he also knew he wasn't going to walk out of it alive. The evidence I have for this is that Duke Leto thinks to himself at one point that he will never again see Caladan. Given that Caladan was taken over by a noble house other than the Harkonnens, I don't see why Leto wouldn't eventually have been able to at least visit there again, unless there is some convention in the Dune universe that I don't know about. The other compelling evidence of Leto's knowledge regarding his future likely death is that in the same passage in which the duke is thinking to himself regarding Paul "I may think of Arrakis as a hell I've reached before death, but he must find here something that will inspire him." The logical explanation is that Leto doesn't believe he will live long enough to arrange such a visit and be confident that his holdings on Arakkis would remain secure while he was gone. Given that if he lived, it was highly probable he would be able to achieve victory over the Harkonnens, it appears to me that Leto knew he was going to be killed sooner or later, and he expected his son would have an opportunity to turn the Freemen into a powerful army. The only surprise to Leto was that his death and the defeat of his house occured so quickly.

I agree, and I think that the fatalism that this realization caused him lent Leto's character a quality that made it hard for me to understand why he was considered by the others as such an inspirational leader. But since he was gone by page 60 of an eventual 2,000+ page series, I paid him little heed and assumed that his leadership qualities were in abundant evidence in events that happened before Dune.

	16-10-2003 18:39									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: I've read the first book, then got bored with the second right after the first chapter. The reason I keep from finishing the series is because of discussions like these- that keep telling me how disappointing the rest can be. :|

Don't give up hope. This series suffers, imho, from even-odd blandness. The odd numbered books were better, more action and intrigue. The evens always seemed to be lulls that focused on setting up the next odd book.

	16-10-2003 18:55									#47
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: the next odd book

unintentional humor?

	16-10-2003 19:09									#48
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed Ix rules. I love Ix. And for some strange reason, i also really like the Tleilaxu, in a way. One thing I really liked about how herbert I wrote about the bene tleilax is how he described everyone's visceral abhorrence of their kind--a phrase here, a line there, all small drops of the hatred that most seemed to bear for the "dirty tleilaxu". he was never really blatant about it--and if we read his personality into it, we might imagine that herbert I was against genetic enegineering--which is one reason why i don't like herbert II's books. there's no finesse in these new ones. it's blunt. i liked the mystery of there not being any women tleilaxu. the mystery of what the axoltl tanks really were. the holiness and religion built around "god's language". i also appreciate how herbert I balanced the mechanical geniuses of Ix against the genetic wizards of Tleilax. the Ixians didn't seem to have a religious zeal around them. they weren't despised--rather, they seemed to be merely tolerated, with a galactic don't ask, don't tell policy as to what the Ixians really put into those amazing technical boxes of theirs. i even liked the bit of humor they threw in, about the name being so old that they didn't know whether it referred to Ix being planet #9, or something else; we all know techies like saying the acronyms, too: SCO == "skoh", IEEE == "aiyee"... and because the Ixians are technogeeks, one wonders why herbert II and anderson decided to add in a biological subclass in their bastards. why wouldn't the Ixians use robots? why wouldn't they automate as much as possible, especially if their world is largely underground. and if we want to read herberts personality here, too, we can probably surmise that he wasn't a great fan of the breakneck pace of technology, but admits that we can't live without it.

Pretty good analysis, especially of the Ixians internal needs. I disagree that the Ixians were merely "tolerated", however. There was a serious religious prohibition against the use of thinking machines, one that included the punishment of death for those who violated this law. The Ixians were needed for the building of Guild Ships and a number of other items, but were themselves despised and ostracized from membership in the Landsraad because of the fact that in their society they still used computers.

I recall that Leto II wanted to destroy them a number of times, but didn't do it because doing so would weaken the Golden Path.

	16-10-2003 22:32									#49
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: unintentional humor?

I'll take anything I can get.

Did Leto II want them destroyed? He had many of the gadgets Ix had created, like the terminal his agent had and his cart. I don't remember any overt ill will towards the Ixians, at least not like the Tlexaiux (I know it's mangled). It's been a few months since I read the series so maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

	16-10-2003 22:40									#50
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Harry Seldon I'll take anything I can get. Did Leto II want them destroyed? He had many of the gadgets Ix had created, like the terminal his agent had and his cart. I don't remember any overt ill will towards the Ixians, at least not like the Tlexaiux (I know it's mangled). It's been a few months since I read the series so maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

There's a point in GEoD where Leto is talking to the two BG's and he admitted that, while he hasn't ever given true consideration to destroying the sisterhood, over the past 3,500 years he had seriously considered destroying the Ixians at certain times.

	16-10-2003 22:48									#51
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Harry Seldon I'll take anything I can get. Did Leto II want them destroyed? He had many of the gadgets Ix had created, like the terminal his agent had and his cart. I don't remember any overt ill will towards the Ixians, at least not like the Tlexaiux (I know it's mangled). It's been a few months since I read the series so maybe I'm not remembering correctly.

I don't recall any Ixian characters in the original series, except for the occasional "Ixian ambassador" that gets referenced to in every other novel.

I think that for the citizens of the Empire, the Tlexaliu are far more creepy than the Ixians, who are just your everyday normal heathens. Through the use of biological weapons, the Tlexaliu are capable of corrupting you just by being in their presence and this belief is ground into everybody - they are the boogy man used to frighten children.

And they are creepy. What's up with those damned axoltl tanks anyway... are they what's left of the Tlexaliuian women?

	16-10-2003 22:48									#52
	Increase the size of your Attachments

hm.. been a while since i've read it, but i thought he was saying it in a tongue-in-cheek manner, seeing as it was really kinda a filler comment. said once, never repeated...

	16-10-2003 22:49									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: And they are creepy. What's up with those damned axoltl tanks anyway... are they what's left of the Tlexaliuian women?

it's revealed, bluntly, in house harkonen or house corinno. no finesse, again.

	16-10-2003 22:55									#54
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, since those books will never be Canon in any world I subscribe to, what do they say?

	16-10-2003 22:56									#55
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I'll look up the relevant quote about Leto II destroying the Ixians tonight.

	16-10-2003 23:39									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: And they are creepy. What's up with those damned axoltl tanks anyway... are they what's left of the Tlexaliuian women? it's revealed, bluntly, in house harkonen or house corinno. no finesse, again.

Yeah, tell me about it. He made the Ixians look like these normal, happy go luck folk who just happen to live underground all the time and employ the equivalent of genejacks...

Gimme a break..

	17-10-2003 00:03									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Well, since those books will never be Canon in any world I subscribe to, what do they say?

spoiler(highlight to read): There are no Tleilaxu women because the axolotl tanks are all that's left of them--a non-sentient enlarged womb. Apparently, they can transform normal females into these axolotl tanks as well through surgical means.

quote: He made the Ixians look like these normal, happy go luck folk who just happen to live underground all the time and employ the equivalent of genejacks...

and i still don't understand the genejack equivalents. ix is mechanical. hello? robots?

	17-10-2003 00:36									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Geez. I'm glad I avoided these House books. They didn't look good and now I'm afraid that if I touch them they'll burn me.

	17-10-2003 00:40									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

yeah. did i mention that reason why gurney halleck (or was it duncan idaho? i think it was halleck) hates the harkonnens so much is explained in the books too?

spoiler(highlight to read): they raped his sister to death after using her as an s&m (evil harkonnens, remember?) sex slave. of course, they go into some detail with that, detail which really they could have done without.

no tact, no subtlety... not to mention a butchered technology timeline...

	17-10-2003 01:10									#60
	Got spare money?

I thought the last bit was explained in the real books

(I wouldn't touch the house ones with a 10 foot pole)

not in detail mind you, but with enough information that you got the picture

Jon Miler