07-10-2003 19:21									#1
	The Apolyton Science Fiction Discussion Group: The Dune Chronicles Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

(Well, I, for one, will be glad to get the Man in the High Castle off my sig. Worst. Discussion. Ever.)

We’re going to open the discussion up to all 6 books, no spoilers, so please: DEAL WITH IT. Otherwise, there is likely no way in Hell that I’ll ever scratch up a voluntary discussion on the merits of Children of Dune for the rest of my life.

*JohnT dies*



I’m sure everybody has read the first book, probably the second book (possibly the most boring and depressing sequel in science fiction up to that time), and you probably gave up Dune sometime during books 3-5, picked it up again a few years later determined to plow through it (including Chapterhouse, and having done so then promptly forgot all that weird crap about the Honored Matres and the Scattering, remembering only the bizarre sex scene between Duncan and that HM who then became the BG’s reverend mother in the final novel, after the death of Darwi Odrade. Or maybe not - but that's how I read the books, and I'm willing to wager that a couple of you did it the same way.

Ok, the 6 books in the Dune Chronicles are as follows:

Dune
Dune Messiah Originally part of the first book, split off into its own separate novel to make the first book more upbeat and clearcut.
Children of Dune
God: Emperor of Dune
Heretics of Dune
Chapterhouse: Dune

Those abortions co-written by Herbert’s son and Brian Anderson are not up for discussion here – unless the discussion is a one-sided denunciation of their hacking and pillaging of the Dune tradition and their complete lack of awareness regarding the source material.

*A-hem!*

Dune is a lot of things to a lot of people, and for a lot of us who read it first from the ages of 10-16, it was our first introduction into the political minds of adults, people whose every move is calculated, every thought measured, their reactions appraised, tested, and re-appraised. People just do not do stuff in Dune with disregard of how other people will react, sometimes I wonder with all the infighting and back-biting how anything of consequence ever gets decided.

Nuances in the curve of a lip, the stance of a potential enemy are pervasive in Dune – more than any other author I’ve read in science fiction, Herbert pays very careful attention to body language and the messages conveyed by such. Re-read the passage where Jessica sends for Chani to revive Paul after Maud’Dib drank the Water of Life: the tension raised not by the words or the situation but by the rigid adherence to formality by Chani, and the physical and vocal tensions this adherence creates within her (conveyed via Jessica's internal reactions to Chani's body language).

Another thing I like about Dune is that Frank Herbert really lets his personality and intellect shine in these novels – he uses the Dune books to tell us his thoughts on Messiah-hood, prescience, environmentalism, religion, politics, etc. Usually an author won’t be so open in their novels, ensuring that plotting and pace take precedence over discourse and background. Herbert is the opposite – he has no problems stopping the action for a discourse/monologue on tradition as he does in Children, in the two chapters where Leto and Stilgar go for their walk. When I read Dune I’m actually aware that not only is Herbert telling us a story, he is also telling us quite a bit about himself and what he thinks is important and interesting.

If I don’t look too closely I buy the technology – it must’ve been quite a challenge to come up with a believeable interstellar feudal society dominated by swordsmen and hand-to-hand combat w/o projectile weapons but with a restrictive and expensive means of space travel. Herbert came up with a pretty decent back-story to explain the lack of computers and the general technological retardation that we wouldn’t expect in such a vast society, a back-story that was made much clearer with the publication of the awesome Dune Encyclopedia. However, I do think that after a few thousand years IX would’ve come up with a mechanical means of interstellar travel and that the Tleilaxu would’ve been able to come up with a spice substitute – the chemical make up can’t be THAT hard to break down.

I’ve got a lot more to say about these novels, but this is enough for now.

Favorite character: Stilgar, of course, followed by Leto II.
Least favorite character: Yueh, Siona in God: Emperor.
Favorite book: Children of Dune, followed by Dune
Least favorite book: Dune Messiah by a WIDE margin after Heretics of Dune.

Last edited by JohnT on 07-10-2003 at 19:29

	07-10-2003 20:58									#2
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amen, someone else who agrees with me that the house x books are an abomination.

i've read all of them except for the house corinno, and i have to say, anything after "god emperor" kinda stinks.

the bastard books screw butcher the timeline, tech scale, and everything else.

the two at the end are flat out bizarre--especially with the super ultra mega powerful duncan idaho...

god emperor's boring, really, but it's the last of the decent ones.

my favorites are the first three.

	07-10-2003 21:07									#3
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one thing that i find strange and interesting is the treatment of the harkonnens.

they are, of course, the evil antagonists.

the baron, also, is strongly suggested to be homosexual.

i'll have to agree with the personality being infused in the books.

	07-10-2003 23:01									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed amen, someone else who agrees with me that the house x books are an abomination. the bastard books screw butcher the timeline, tech scale, and everything else.

I like that – “bastard books.” They are wretched indeed, and are not only bad “Dune” books, but bad fiction as well. I started a thread about them over a year ago where Ming claims that they are “fun,” which pretty much wrecked any good opinion I had of him. Check it out.

quote: i've read all of them except for the house corinno, and i have to say, anything after "god emperor" kinda stinks. the two at the end are flat out bizarre--especially with the super ultra mega powerful duncan idaho... god emperor's boring, really, but it's the last of the decent ones. my favorites are the first three.

The two final Herbert books are part of an unfinished trilogy that remained uncompleted when Frank died in 1986 (or so). There was supposed to be a third book that wrapped it all up but it was in the note phase, with very little actual writing done on it.

Most people didn’t like the last two books because of the thematic disconnect – we had no idea, reading the first four books, that we were actually reading the Duncan Idaho Story and not All in the Atreides Family. Essentially what you are witnessing is the destruction of the Old Empire and the last few remnants of the Bene Gesserit fighting the overwhelming forces of the Honored Matres, rogue BG that left in the Scattering and evolved BG techniques to new levels, even including a method of enslaving men through the use of sexual persuasion. Because there are no Atreides left, the BG deal with what they must and resurrect Duncan in the hopes that he can become another Kwisatzch Haderach and help fight off the HM’s. He subverts one of the commanders by turning her sexual powers against her (the above-mentioned bizarre sex scene), who then (iirc) becomes the new Reverend Mother of the BG’s by the end of Chapterhouse, and is ready to either lead them to victory or sell them to slavery.

A nice touch that Herbert did with God: Emperor was that he did NOT place the book within the exciting whirlwind of the Scattering but at the tail-end of 3,000 years of human suppression and containment. Instead of doing the easy thing, providing a book with lots of action and thrills as people escape their homeworlds to spread themselves out in the Universe, he tried to make the reader feel how oppressive, limiting, and small Leto’s universe was – yeah, he controls an interstellar empire, but his world is limited to a few palaces on a couple of cities.

	07-10-2003 23:45									#5
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I liked all six but I have to admit I was an odd book fan over the even numbers. I never had much interest in the series until I picked up an early edition at the thrift store and thought I'd give it a shot. I can say definitively that the movie with Kyle McKlocklin(sp) was terrible compared to the book and I can see why my friends despised it.

One of the things I didn't really understand was Duncan Idaho's significance. I mean, why Duncan over any other character, like Duke Leto I or another of the original Duke's retinue. The explanations in the book ("He was the only true man...") always seemed weak to me.

I also wondered about how the possession was so detrimental to the preborn but never really affected those who were older when they first drank the spice poison. I mean, Alia seemed fine until she was in her twenties or late teens and then she suddenly has this inner battle. It seems to me the only defense would be a strongly developed personality but Alia's personality appeared developed when she was possessed.

quote: Well, I, for one, will be glad to get the Man in the High Castle off my sig. Worst. Discussion. Ever

It's not much of a discussing type book, and I feel like it was one of the worst books by a usually sound author. Go figure, eh?

	08-10-2003 00:35									#6
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quote: One of the things I didn't really understand was Duncan Idaho's significance. I mean, why Duncan over any other character, like Duke Leto I or another of the original Duke's retinue. The explanations in the book ("He was the only true man...") always seemed weak to me.

Iirc, the significance is the fact that his is the only cells remaining from the time before the Scattering, back even to the times of Muad'dib. I made the assumption that the Tleixlau made advances in their ghola technology, so that one that could eventually make Duncan a Kwisatzch Haderach.

quote: I also wondered about how the possession was so detrimental to the preborn but never really affected those who were older when they first drank the spice poison. I mean, Alia seemed fine until she was in her twenties or late teens and then she suddenly has this inner battle. It seems to me the only defense would be a strongly developed personality but Alia's personality appeared developed when she was possessed.

Agreed - Herbert never really made that clear. However, I could argue that Alia's natal possession was thwarted by Jessica's bonding with her when Jessica drank the Water of Life, and her personality did not slip until she lost the protective, loving influence of her mother when Jessica went back to Caladan with Gurney.

	08-10-2003 01:00									#7
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I liked the later SciFi channel adaptation of Dune. Usually, I don't have a problem with the set up of a SciFi story as long as it is self-consistent. When I first read Dune, I was willing to accept it. Now, my knowledge of biotech is a lot greater (as is biotech's knowledge of biotech) and I cannot accept that spice (an organic molecule) cannot be artificially duplicated. With genetic samples of worms in their various stages of development, it would only take the technology of today a decade or two to create transgenic bacteria that would be cranking out spice.

For me, the main thing I got out of the Dune stories was the idea that prescience implied predictability which ultimately implied doom. This was a cool idea and once accepted logically led Leto II to initiate the steps that caused the scattering. I liken it to a surgeon who realizes he must amputate a part to save the whole. This was the struggle that was interesting to me.

	08-10-2003 03:13									#8
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I thought the suprise angle was a little heavy handed with the Leto II story. I did like the big brother feel of the empire that was created. Does anyone think the attack at the bridge was a suprise? He seemed to me like he wasn't expecting it or maybe the way it happened but it's been a few months since I read that one say my remembry could be off.

	08-10-2003 03:23									#9
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quote: Originally posted by pchang Now, my knowledge of biotech is a lot greater (as is biotech's knowledge of biotech) and I cannot accept that spice (an organic molecule) cannot be artificially duplicated. With genetic samples of worms in their various stages of development, it would only take the technology of today a decade or two to create transgenic bacteria that would be cranking out spice.

Nonsense. When you can buy a shirt made out of non-natural silk, or a rope made out of spider-silk come on back and tell us. We're a long way from synthesizing complex organic molecules (in any fashion).

	08-10-2003 04:50									#10
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It's all about need. We synthesize human insulin all the time. Name any new biotech drug - it is a very complex organic molecule.

	08-10-2003 06:11									#11
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quote: remembering only the bizarre sex scene between Duncan and that HM who then became the BG reverend mother in the final novel

Yeah, sounds about right to me.

	08-10-2003 06:58									#12
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I like Dune Messiah, but JohnT is right on the mark about the, ahem, spinoffs. They are an abomination onto Me and must be ignored and not bought in used book stores lest my wrath is provoked.

Being the technophile that I am, Ix was my favourite bit player. Meh.

	08-10-2003 07:18									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Seldon I thought the suprise angle was a little heavy handed with the Leto II story. I did like the big brother feel of the empire that was created. Does anyone think the attack at the bridge was a suprise? He seemed to me like he wasn't expecting it or maybe the way it happened but it's been a few months since I read that one say my remembry could be off.

It was and it wasn't. Leto "knew" the following things:

1. That the Golden Path was assured whether he survived crossing the bridge.
2. That Siona disappeared from his visions.
3. That Leto must die in water.

otoh, he never knew

4. The moment of his death (other than how it would effect the Golden Path).

Therefore though he probably realized that there might've existed the possibility of his death, he dismissed it as being ultimately irrelevant for the larger future of mankind.

Also, towards the last year, he became increasingly erratic and less-cautionary because of his relationship with Hwi.

	08-10-2003 07:19									#14
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dp... damnable lack of graphics.

	08-10-2003 17:38									#15
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I was also suprised that Leto II's Fish Speakers weren't more involved in later tales. Leto II had spread them all over the empire and I thought this would lead to at least a greater superficial control over the destiny of the empire.

	08-10-2003 18:22									#16
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Ix rules. I love Ix. And for some strange reason, i also really like the Tleilaxu, in a way.

One thing I really liked about how herbert I wrote about the bene tleilax is how he described everyone's visceral abhorrence of their kind--a phrase here, a line there, all small drops of the hatred that most seemed to bear for the "dirty tleilaxu". he was never really blatant about it--and if we read his personality into it, we might imagine that herbert I was against genetic enegineering--which is one reason why i don't like herbert II's books. there's no finesse in these new ones. it's blunt.
i liked the mystery of there not being any women tleilaxu. the mystery of what the axoltl tanks really were. the holiness and religion built around "god's language".

i also appreciate how herbert I balanced the mechanical geniuses of Ix against the genetic wizards of Tleilax. the Ixians didn't seem to have a religious zeal around them. they weren't despised--rather, they seemed to be merely tolerated, with a galactic don't ask, don't tell policy as to what the Ixians really put into those amazing technical boxes of theirs. i even liked the bit of humor they threw in, about the name being so old that they didn't know whether it referred to Ix being planet #9, or something else; we all know techies like saying the acronyms, too: SCO == "skoh", IEEE == "aiyee"...
and because the Ixians are technogeeks, one wonders why herbert II and anderson decided to add in a biological subclass in their bastards. why wouldn't the Ixians use robots? why wouldn't they automate as much as possible, especially if their world is largely underground.
and if we want to read herberts personality here, too, we can probably surmise that he wasn't a great fan of the breakneck pace of technology, but admits that we can't live without it.

	08-10-2003 19:32									#17
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quote: Those abortions co-written by Herbert’s son and Brian Anderson are not up for discussion here – unless the discussion is a one-sided denunciation of their hacking and pillaging of the Dune tradition and their complete lack of awareness regarding the source material.

The thing that really pisses me off is that they kept Dr Willis Mcnelly's reference work, The Encyclopedia of Dune out of print so they put out their own reference work, The Dune Concordance.

I have been absolutely obsessed with finding this book because it's an excellent reference work that had Herbert Sr.'s seal of approval.

quote: . I can say definitively that the movie with Kyle McKlocklin(sp) was terrible compared to the book and I can see why my friends despised it.

Visually, I thought the movie was perfect. But, you're right, they muddled the books plot and themes so badly as to render it incomprehensible.

	08-10-2003 19:34									#18
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is the kyle movie the one directed by david lynch? or the sci-fi one?

the david lynch one was a travesty.

	08-10-2003 19:37									#19
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The sci-fi one was the travesty, Q, trust me. Lynch's movie, while boring as hell to someone who hasn't read the books before (and to many who have), at least got the feel and look of Herbert's Dune, whereas the science fiction channels just kept the name and the characters and the barest outlines of the plot.

I mean, I'm watching it and I'm like "was this written by Anderson/Herbert Jr?"

	08-10-2003 19:39									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Jac de Molay The thing that really pisses me off is that they kept Dr Willis Mcnelly's reference work, The Encyclopedia of Dune out of print so they put out their own reference work, The Dune Concordance.

If that is true that is a travesty. That was a freakin' awesome book, and should've been the blueprint used by Anderson/Jr.

	08-10-2003 19:40									#21
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The motion picture Dune was directed by Lynch, and starred McLaqlin, Sean Young , Sting, and the guy from Das Boot. Soundtrack by Toto. .

A visually superb movie, IMHO. But anyone that didn't read the book would have no clue what's going on.

	08-10-2003 19:40									#22
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it got the look of dune, but butchered everything else.
wierding modules? wierding modules? wtf? let's not forget the ornithopters that look like cardboard boxes with their flaps out.

i didn't much care for the sci-fi one, but i think it's at least a bit more faithful to the story.

in any case, dune is a damn hard book to get into a movie. most epic/messianic stories are hard to get into a good movie--looking at all the bad adaptations of the bible or about ww2, etc more than proves that.

	08-10-2003 19:41									#23
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oh, the lynch movie also has patrick stewart as gurney halleck, iirc.

	08-10-2003 19:47									#24
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quote: wierding modules? wierding modules? wtf?

He's got a point here. The weirding modules were hella gay.

quote: oh, the lynch movie also has patrick stewart as gurney halleck, iirc.

What horrible casting. Halleck was supposed to be an ugly hulk of a man, not some poncey, Shakespearean-theater type.

	08-10-2003 20:02									#25
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT If that is true that is a travesty. That was a freakin' awesome book, and should've been the blueprint used by Anderson/Jr.

Well, maybe that's hyperbole. But the last time I checked the Concordance website, they were making it abundantly clear that the Encyclopedia was not an official representation of the Dune universe. Which is bullshit because McNelly is the most reputable science fiction scholar out there, and consulted with Herbert frequently when writing his reference work.

I've been so crazy to find this book I still have dreams about it. I've been combing bookstores in Detroit and Ann Arbor but no luck, and the prices on EBay are getting ridiculous.

	08-10-2003 20:13									#26
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I've never heard of the Encyclodepia. Do you have a name I can look for when I'm in the used bookstore?

	08-10-2003 21:24									#27
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Well, it's basically called the Dune Encyclopedia, by Dr. Willis E. McNelly. The last time I checked, there was 100,000+ copies sold, then it went out of print. Good luck finding it , because any knowledgable used dealer is not going to part with it.

Here's a decent site with art and excerpts.

	08-10-2003 22:54									#28
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Well, I'll keep my fingers crossed for a romance lover behind the desk. We have several small and used bookstores around here and I've found some real gems hidden among the shelves.

	13-10-2003 19:35									#29
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Bumpity - c'mon people, this is a CLASSIC. Where are Ming, Rah, and the other supposed sci-fi buffs? Not commenting on Perdido Street Station is one thing, but not commenting on Dune?

Anyway, another thing that I liked about the series is how Herbert used both the passage of time and new characters to destroy the cherished assumptions of previous protagonists. In Dune he built the world and the mythology of Paul Atreides, the prescient leader of fanatical fighting men conditioned exquisitely to believe in the rightness of their Maud'dib. In Dune Messiah Herbert started attacking Maud'dib from within and without, from Pauls inner torment at what he unleashed to the stoneburner attack. This process was completed in Children of Dune, where Leto II is pressed to finish destroying the mythology of Maud'dib in order to save interstellar civilization from the collapse of the spice trade brought about by the successful terraforming of Arrakis.

Leto II ends CoD building up his own mythology at the expense of his fathers by using the sandworms to change his body into a form that will last for over 3,500 years - long past the time when all sandworms will be extinct. He does this so that he can use his prescience to guide mankind safely around the upcoming Armageddon (Kralizek? Typhoon war of some sort) that he foresees in mankinds future if the spice isn't preserved by means of force and religion.

God: Emperor begins the deconstruction of Leto: II. Tired, old, agelessly cynical, Leto is beginning to look forward to his death and to releasing mankind from the bonds of his authority. He has spent 3,500 years guiding mankind around Kralizeck and is now in the process of purposely revealing chinks in his armor so that his enemies can safely strike at him. He has but one requirement: that he dies in water, so that the sandworms in his body can break up and start the re-desertification of Arrakis that is needed to fuel the upcoming Scattering.

The deconstruction of Leto II is completed in Heretics of Dune, while the Atreidesian focus of the story lands on Darwi Odrade, long-time descendent of Siona Atreides and Duncan Idaho. HoD opens thousands of years in the future, with Leto II being a fading memory and people focused on more important concerns, especially the return of some groups from the Scattering, including the Honored Matres. HoD also follows the story of a special Duncan Idaho ghola and an Honored Matre whom Duncan persuades to switch sides.

In Chapterhouse Dune Darwi Odrade is removed (or dies, I don't recall) and the above-mentioned Honored Matre is made Mother Superior or whatever of the Bene Gesserit, a BG pounded nearly into submission by the superior training and numbers of the HM's. The pattern is kind of lost in this book as the following novel was left unwritten. However, at the end of Chapterhouse we are left with the knowledge that the Honered Matres weren't expanding, they were fleeing, and were going to use the Old Empire as the base of their final counter-attack - Kralizek returned despite the machinations of Leto II and Paul.

The final book was to be the Final Battle, with a combined HM/BG force fighting a return of the machines from the Butlerian Jihad. This is purely speculation on my part, but there are a lot of signals in the long story of Dune that point to a final war. Too bad it's going to be left to the hacks of Anderson and Jr. to depict the war that even Leto II feared.

	13-10-2003 20:19									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Seldon I was also suprised that Leto II's Fish Speakers weren't more involved in later tales. Leto II had spread them all over the empire and I thought this would lead to at least a greater superficial control over the destiny of the empire.

They were. The Fish Speakers that joined the Scattering evolved into the Honored Matres (with the ritual of Siaynoq leading to the HM sexual bonding techniques).