08-10-2003 11:03									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker The Constitution says you have to be born here, but that provision will get ignored under certain circumstances. Barry Goldwater wasn't born in the USA but had he won in '64, no one would have tried to deny him the office. But we won't see that provision ignored in Arnie's case...

He was born in Arizona when it was still a territory, but it was stil the United States.

	08-10-2003 11:06									#92
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Los Angeles and Solano counties are still indecisive. Alameda and Tulare Counties has not been reviewed yet. At this moment the recall is losing in the bay area and in Wine Country.

	08-10-2003 11:07									#93
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IIRC, Goldwater was born in the Panama Canal Zone, a territory of the US at the time of his birth. Federal courts have long ruled that US Territories were part of the US for legal and sovereignty purposes, with the notable exception of the so-called Insular Cases from 1905-1915, when an extremely reactionary and racist SCOTUS ruled in a series of cases that the Phillipines (and by extension, other territiories full of brown people taken from Spain after the Spanish-American war) were US jurisdiction for the purposes and convenience of the US government, but not for the purposes (i.e. citizenship) of the greasy ignorant brown scum born there.

Even considering the Insular Cases, as long as the US has had territories (and most states were once US territories before being granted statehood - California was one of the few exceptions), that children of US citizens who were born in US territories were considered native US citizens, and not naturalized or granted citizens.

	08-10-2003 11:10									#94
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Then stay in Russia. Yeah, how dare us ****ing common rabble who pay taxes actually exercise some control over the *******s who the grand party elites decide we get to pick from for elected office.

There should be some reasonable balance. You exercise control once in 4 years. But not letting a governor, who was legitimately elected and who has not violated any law, finish his term simply due to general difficulties and some unpopular measures he had to take is irresponsible populism. Add to this the victory of Arnie, who is obviously incompetent, and we obtain irresponsible populism squared.

quote: Maybe, if you don't live or work in California, you should concern yourself with your politics, not ours.

I am rather disappointed by the tone of your reply. What, an outsider can't just state his opinion?

	08-10-2003 11:12									#95
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I think Goldwater was born in Phoenix. Are you talking about McCain?

	08-10-2003 11:13									#96
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Territories were not states and that was a point of discussion at the time he ran, not that anyone would have seriously tried to deny him the office.

	08-10-2003 11:16									#97
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quote: Goldwater was born in the Panama Canal Zone, a territory of the US at the time of his birth. Federal courts have long ruled that US Territories were part of the US for legal and sovereignty purposes, with the notable exception of the so-called Insular Cases from 1905-1915, when an extremely reactionary and racist SCOTUS ruled in a series of cases that the Phillipines (and by extension, other territiories full of brown people taken from Spain after the Spanish-American war) were US jurisdiction for the purposes and convenience of the US government, but not for the purposes (i.e. citizenship) of the greasy ignorant brown scum born there.

Oops, I didn't know that. I thought he was born in Az, but I think he was born in 1909 so his birthdate falls into that period.

	08-10-2003 11:17									#98
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Yeah - it's McCain who was born in the Canal Zone - Goldwater was born in Arizona Territory.

	08-10-2003 11:17									#99
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OK, thanks. At least it doesn't seem to be arbitrary.

It might also be noted that British parliaments have a really nasty sort of recall for leaders. Ask Thatcher about it.

	08-10-2003 11:17									#100
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obviously incompetant?

now you are just trolling. how do you know he's incompetant? he hasn't even been in office?

	08-10-2003 11:18									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Oops, I didn't know that. I thought he was born in Az, but I think he was born in 1909 so his birthdate falls into that period.

See my correction, courtesy of Spray.

Although the same thing applies with McCain, since he was a primary candidate.

	08-10-2003 11:23									#102
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I doubt Arnie's incompetent, he seems to succeed at most everything he goes for. I'd sooner trust someone who has made it in "private" life than a career pol who stays in power based on his ability to buy votes. I forget who said it (maybe it was that french guy who came here in the 1830's), but it goes like this - America will go bankrupt when the people discover they can simply vote themselves money from the treasury.

	08-10-2003 11:23									#103
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Well, that was a truly a surreal election. Anybody thoughts on the potential impact for national elections?

Watching the TV coverage many of the Democratic Analysts seemed to be concern that now California might be in play for the 2004 elections. Well, for one, thuis will definitely help in terms of fundraising for Bush, but beyond that I tend to see it as doubtful that a social conservative such as Bush would be able to win an election in California, it seems more likely that this election was due to short term forces(namely have an extremely incompetent governor who was disliked). I think perhaps this could be more of an issue in the downticket races if the Schwarzenegger's elections could revitalize the strength of the moderate wing of the GOP, he might be able to help out in some of the Congressional races. In 2004 the California GOP will definitely be gunning for Barbara Boxer- maybe that might actually stand a chance if they can get a moderate like Riordan to run as the Republican nominee?

	08-10-2003 11:25									#104
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Yup, got it. I don't think there has ever been a serious court challenge to a candidate from a territory as opposed to a state. Like you said, the courts have basicly said territories are as good as states wrt citizenship rights...

	08-10-2003 11:28									#105
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as for impact in 2004, it's too soon to tell. It all depends on what Arnold can accomplish in the next 11 or 12 months or so.

	08-10-2003 11:30									#106
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"The best argument against Democracy is to spend 5 minutes discussing politics with the man in the street."

Oh, and politicians in general could learn a lot from this result. Always make sure to do a couple of action movies before running for public office.

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	08-10-2003 11:30									#107
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond There should be some reasonable balance.

There is. First, the elected politicians and the state serve the people, not the other way around - something a lot of leftist and rightwing statists and authoritarian types, not to mention both US political parties of note, completely ignore.

Second, it takes a spectacularly inept and unpopular governor to get recalled. We put up with Brown jr. and Wilson, Davis didn't make the grade.

quote: You exercise control once in 4 years.

We exercise it whenever the political will is sufficient. Normally, that's every four years. Not this time.

quote: But not letting a governor, who was legitimately elected and who has not violated any law, finish his term simply due to general difficulties and some unpopular measures he had to take is irresponsible populism.

Quite telling that you're more concerned with the convenience of one man who you consider entitled to milk his full term as governor, rather than the tens of millions of California citizens affected by by his policies or lack theirof. If the people of California wanted to retain the dumbass, they had the chance to do so, and they turned out in record numbers to make sure he got the boot.

As far as "general difficulties" I wouldn't call tens of billions of dollars of fiscal mismanagement "general difficulties" (tell me, are you sympathetic to poor Ken Lay and Andy Fastow?), especially when coupled with a failure to address and reform a number of long-standing issues within California that affect both the California economy and quality of life for it's residents.

It's Davis failure to make tough choices, not his making of them, that earned Davis a red card.

quote: Add to this the victory of Arnie, who is obviously incompetent, and we obtain irresponsible populism squared.

We shall see if he's competent or not. He is, however, a political outsider, not a part of the establishment of the two main parties, and he has been sucessful in private business totally apart from his movie career.

quote: I am rather disappointed by the tone of your reply. What, an outsider can't just state his opinion?

If you state it in an insulting way, expect to get the deserved reply. I was gentle.

	08-10-2003 11:31									#108
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No impact, Bush will lose California anyway, although if Arnie's a success, the Dems might have to spend some money making sure the state remains secure.

	08-10-2003 11:34									#109
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quote: I was gentle.

IMPOSSIBLE!

	08-10-2003 11:35									#110
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But there is more to it than that. Arnolds' success could have impact outside the state. If a republican succeeds where democrats have failed. People in other states might be more inclined to vote for Bush in 2004.

	08-10-2003 11:36									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Well, that was a truly a surreal election. Anybody thoughts on the potential impact for national elections? Watching the TV coverage many of the Democratic Analysts seemed to be concern that now California might be in play for the 2004 elections. Well, for one, thuis will definitely help in terms of fundraising for Bush, but beyond that I tend to see it as doubtful that a social conservative such as Bush would be able to win an election in California, it seems more likely that this election was due to short term forces(namely have an extremely incompetent governor who was disliked). I think perhaps this could be more of an issue in the downticket races if the Schwarzenegger's elections could revitalize the strength of the moderate wing of the GOP, he might be able to help out in some of the Congressional races. In 2004 the California GOP will definitely be gunning for Barbara Boxer- maybe that might actually stand a chance if they can get a moderate like Riordan to run as the Republican nominee?

I doubt the GOP, at least the RNC, will gun for Boxer in any big way. She's such a twit that she's a poster girl for the Republican Party in just about every other state besides Hawaii and Massachusetts, and California elections are very expensive - the same money which might or might not be enough here, will massively tilt the balance in 3-4 smaller states with vulnerable Democrats, so it's simple math - do you throw a lot of effort to maybe get one Senate vote, and that only with a moderate Republican, or do you take that same money and gun for three or four races where you have a chance to win with more conservative candidates in line with the party platform?

I would salivate at the chance to replace Boxer with Riordan, but it really isn't smart national strategy for the Republicans, when most of their funding priority is on the Presidential race.

And Bush doesn't have a chance here in 2004 unless the economy recovers.

	08-10-2003 11:40									#112
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Exactly what were the stated reasons for the recall in the first place? I dont know the exact wording of the Cali constituntion on the topic of recalls, but shouldnt there be a really good reason to start one.

Also, I remember CNN mentioning that there were pettions to recall Reagan, Brown and other Cali governors but they never really went anywhere. It seems Davis just pissed everyone off at the same time lol

	08-10-2003 11:49									#113
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The most significant single reason was that Davis office delayed and massaged reporting of the pending budget shortfalls immediately prior to his reelection.

Issa and others took the position that if Davis had been honest about the extent of the coming problem, he might not have been reelected in the first place, especially as he had less than 50% approval at the time of the election, and barely beat Simon, who was a piss poor candidate.

The basic rules on a recall are simple - if the majority of the electorate voting in the recall want to remove the officeholder, then it's done. There are no "reasons" required, for very good reason - if there was, Davis or any other officeholder could tie up a recall in the courts for enough time to serve out his term, so the state makes the radical presumption that the common rabble can decide for themselves if they want to keep someone in office, or remove him.

The California Constitution and California Elections Code sections dealing with the recall are all procedural in nature.

	08-10-2003 12:23									#114
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quote: I can guarantee that many people in BC wish they had recall and did not have to wait 4 or 5 years to beat the snot out of the lying rat bastards.

Revenge is a dish best served cold. It was much more satisfying to win the election 4 years later.

Now we just have to listen to the whining of the NDP who want proportional representation when they lose, and not when they win.

	08-10-2003 12:40									#115
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What just happened?



Frickin' Californians...

	08-10-2003 12:45									#116
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You think this is bad? Enjoy while it lasts.. next governer will be me. There will be Susie Q's all over the streets, free and lose women, free alcohol, LEGALIZED MARIJUANA AND NO NEW TAXES!!!!



Vote Pekka!

	08-10-2003 13:05									#117
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Wow, if you look at a map of the state (colored by whether a county went for or against the recall), the Bay area and much of the northern coast is one color, the rest of the state is another.

Looks like Alameda county went pretty much the way I would have voted.

	08-10-2003 13:10									#118
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Arnold has been part of the republican establishment for decades. Some people might think that they have voted against the political class when voting for Arnold, nothing is further from the truth. His own PR, and more importantly, the medias oppsession about his day-job might have tricked a lot that wanted serious change.

	08-10-2003 13:22									#119
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat There is. First, the elected politicians and the state serve the people, not the other way around - something a lot of leftist and rightwing statists and authoritarian types, not to mention both US political parties of note, completely ignore.

Yes, but they should be given a chance to serve the people on a reasonable basis. Facing recall after each setback is not a normal way to work for the governor, and it won't bring any good to the people he is supposed to serve.

quote: Second, it takes a spectacularly inept and unpopular governor to get recalled. We put up with Brown jr. and Wilson, Davis didn't make the grade.

Perhaps more importantly, it takes a bomb like Arnold on the candidate list.

Would he have been recalled if Arnie were not on the list? I would not be so sure.

It is conceptually wrong to have recall simultaneously with a new election.

quote: We exercise it whenever the political will is sufficient. Normally, that's every four years. Not this time.

This is precisely the problem. Normally, you are more responsible. Not this time.

quote: Quite telling that you're more concerned with the convenience of one man who you consider entitled to milk his full term as governor, rather than the tens of millions of California citizens affected by by his policies or lack theirof.

It's not about the convenience of one man. It's about the governor being able to do his work normally.

quote: If the people of California wanted to retain the dumbass, they had the chance to do so, and they turned out in record numbers to make sure he got the boot.

This argument would be more substantial if the recall had been held separately. But now it isn't clear whether it was to kick Davis out, or to put Arnold in (or perhaps to put Bustamante in, which is applicable to Latino voters).

quote: As far as "general difficulties" I wouldn't call tens of billions of dollars of fiscal mismanagement "general difficulties" (tell me, are you sympathetic to poor Ken Lay and Andy Fastow?), especially when coupled with a failure to address and reform a number of long-standing issues within California that affect both the California economy and quality of life for it's residents. It's Davis failure to make tough choices, not his making of them, that earned Davis a red card.

But he was re-elected just one year ago... People should have thought about this back then.

quote: We shall see if he's competent or not. He is, however, a political outsider, not a part of the establishment of the two main parties, and he has been sucessful in private business totally apart from his movie career.

Would he be able to launch his businesses without the money he gets from the movie career?

Well, at the very least, he was competent enough to find competent people to run his business for him. Valuable quality for the governor.

quote: If you state it in an insulting way, expect to get the deserved reply. I was gentle.

OK, thanks for being that gentle.

	08-10-2003 13:45									#120
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Current Results:

code:
Statewide
  Arnold Schwarzenegger          Rep   3,099,356   47.6 
  Cruz M. Bustamante             Dem   2,130,187   32.7 
  Tom McClintock                 Rep     858,382   13.2 
  Peter Miguel Camejo            Grn     184,310    2.9 
  Arianna Huffington             Ind      38,368    0.6 
  Peter V. Ueberroth             Rep      19,142    0.3 
  Larry Flynt                    Dem      13,288    0.3 
  Gary Coleman                   Ind      10,923    0.2 
  George B. Schwartzman          Ind       9,364    0.2 
  Mary Cook                      Ind       8,625    0.2 
  Bruce Martin Margolin          Dem       7,022    0.2 
  Bill Simon                     Rep       6,904    0.2 
  John Christopher Burton        Ind       5,293    0.0 
  David Laughing Horse Robinson  Dem       5,106    0.0 
  Van Vo                         Rep       4,427    0.0 
  Leo Gallagher                  Ind       4,266    0.0 
  Cheryl Bly-Chester             Rep       4,000    0.0 
  Lawrence Steven Strauss        Dem       3,782    0.0 
  Ronald Jason Palmieri          Dem       3,447    0.0 
  Calvin Y. Louie                Dem       3,023    0.0 
  Badi Badiozamani               Ind       2,536    0.0 
  Audie E. Bock                  Dem       2,456    0.0 
  Ralph A. Hernandez             Dem       2,395    0.0 
  Bob McClain                    Ind       2,268    0.0 
  Dan Feinstein                  Dem       2,254    0.0 
  Edward Thomas Kennedy          Dem       2,221    0.0 
  James Henry Green              Dem       2,171    0.0 
  Angelyne                       Ind       1,988    0.0 
  Garrett Gruener                Dem       1,975    0.0 
  Jerome Kunzman                 Ind       1,944    0.0 
  Jim Weir                       Dem       1,838    0.0 
  Ivan Alexander Hall III        Grn       1,797    0.0 
  Georgina Russell               Dem       1,750    0.0 
  Ned Fenton Roscoe              Lib       1,724    0.0 
  Paul Mariano                   Dem       1,687    0.0 
  Jonathan D. Miller             Dem       1,643    0.0 
  Christopher Sproul             Dem       1,510    0.0 
  Brooke Adams                   Ind       1,501    0.0 
  Ken Hamidi                     Lib       1,498    0.0 
  Daniel T. Watts                Grn       1,491    0.0 
  Randall D. Sprague             Rep       1,467    0.0 
  Jack Loyd Grisham              Ind       1,445    0.0 
  Frank A. Macaluso, Jr.         Dem       1,369    0.0 
  Nathan Whitecloud Walton       Ind       1,339    0.0 
  John J. "Jack" Hickey          Lib       1,320    0.0 
  Marc Valdez                    Dem       1,293    0.0 
  C.T. Weber                     P&F       1,290    0.0 
  Daniel C. Ramirez              Dem       1,276    0.0 
  Michael J. Wozniak             Dem       1,256    0.0 
  Mohammad Arif                  Ind       1,184    0.0 
  B.E. Smith                     Ind       1,164    0.0 
  Lingel H. Winters              Dem       1,152    0.0 
  Mike Schmier                   Dem       1,144    0.0 
  Diana Foss                     Dem       1,123    0.0 
  Joe Guzzardi                   Dem       1,100    0.0 
  Mike P. McCarthy               Ind       1,090    0.0 
  Leonard Padilla                Ind       1,063    0.0 
  Richard J. Simmons             Ind       1,039    0.0 
  Art Brown                      Dem       1,025    0.0 
  Trek Thunder Kelly             Ind         951    0.0 
  Maurice J. Walker              Grn         946    0.0 
  Darin Price                    Nat         942    0.0 
  Iris Adam                      Nat         933    0.0 
  John "Jack" Mortensen          Dem         886    0.0 
  Vikramjit S. Bajwa             Dem         855    0.0 
  David Ronald Sams              Rep         831    0.0 
  Diane Beall Templin            AmI         805    0.0 
  Sara Ann Hanlon                Ind         804    0.0 
  Jim Hoffmann                   Rep         802    0.0 
  **** Lane                      Dem         781    0.0 
  William B. Vaughn              Dem         780    0.0 
  Charles "Chuck" Pineda Jr.     AmI         768    0.0 
  Robert C. Newman II            Rep         737    0.0 
  C. Stephen Henderson           Ind         735    0.0 
  Dorene Musilli                 Rep         692    0.0 
  Scott A. Mednick               Dem         671    0.0 
  Jamie Rosemary Safford         Rep         671    0.0 
  Sharon Rushford                Ind         650    0.0 
  Kurt E. Rightmyer              Ind         649    0.0 
  Brian Tracy                    Ind         635    0.0 
  Christopher Ranken             Dem         624    0.0 
  Darryl L. Mobley               Ind         613    0.0 
  Robert C. Mannheim             Dem         606    0.0 
  Michael Jackson                Rep         590    0.0 
  Alex-St. James                 Rep         584    0.0 
  Darrin H. Scheidle             Dem         579    0.0 
  Joel Britton                   Ind         578    0.0 
  Patricia G. Tilley             Ind         576    0.0 
  Douglas Anderson               Rep         554    0.0 
  A. Lavar Taylor                Dem         545    0.0 
  Paul "Chip" Mailander          Dem         544    0.0 
  Bob Lynn Edwards               Dem         535    0.0 
  Ed Beyer                       Rep         523    0.0 
  Paul James Nave                Dem         522    0.0 
  John W. Beard                  Rep         516    0.0 
  Chuck Walker                   Rep         491    0.0 
  William S. Chambers            Rep         479    0.0 
  Robert Cullenbine              Dem         478    0.0 
  Warren Farrell                 Dem         474    0.0 
  James M. Vandeventer, Jr.      Rep         471    0.0 
  Dennis Duggan McMahon          Rep         461    0.0 
  Eric Korevaar                  Dem         443    0.0 
  Vip Bhola                      Rep         442    0.0 
  Gerold Lee Gorman              Dem         438    0.0 
  Kelly P. Kimball               Dem         429    0.0 
  Mike McNeilly                  Rep         424    0.0 
  S. Issa                        Rep         424    0.0 
  Bryan Quinn                    Rep         396    0.0 
  Gino Martorana                 Rep         372    0.0 
  Richard Andrew Gosse           Rep         370    0.0 
  Tim Sylvester                  Dem         366    0.0 
  Michael Cheli                  Ind         336    0.0 
  Paul W. Vann                   Rep         329    0.0 
  Jeff Rainforth                 Ind         328    0.0 
  Heather Peters                 Rep         323    0.0 
  Ronald J. Friedman             Ind         313    0.0 
  Jeffrey L. Mock                Rep         309    0.0 
  Daniel W. Richards             Rep         303    0.0 
  Scott W. Davis                 Ind         300    0.0 
  Bill Prady                     Dem         292    0.0 
  Jon William Zellhoefer         Rep         282    0.0 
  Gregory J. Pawlik              Rep         267    0.0 
  Todd Carson                    Rep         265    0.0 
  Lorraine Fontanes              Dem         262    0.0 
  Gary Leonard                   Dem         253    0.0 
  Carl A. Mehr                   Rep         251    0.0 
  Stephen L. Knapp               Rep         232    0.0 
  Reva Renee Renz                Rep         231    0.0 
  Kevin Richter                  Rep         230    0.0 
  William James Tsangares        Rep         219    0.0 
  D. (Logan Darrow) Clements     Rep         215    0.0 
  Robert A. Dole                 Rep         187    0.0 
  David E. Kessinger             Dem         183    0.0 
  Gene Forte                     Rep         180    0.0 
  Todd Richard Lewis             Ind         150    0.0