09-10-2003 02:23									#1
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What exactly IS a 'Nerve Stapling', and what does it do? o.O

I know it suppresses Drone riots in AC, but I was wondering what it would actually be...

	09-10-2003 04:24									#2
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Well, someone will come along in a minute and feed you a load of crap from Michael Ely.

But it involves either making people docile so they can be controled - like a lobotomy, or it is something that "punishes" the Drones if they try to misbehave, perhaps with a shock directly into thier nerves.

Either way, its completly safe with no permanant effects

-Jam

	09-10-2003 06:57									#3
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I believe that there is a rather severe penalty for nerve stapling your citizen's but I'm not sure what it is, can anyone else help?

	09-10-2003 08:37									#4
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Sanctions, loss of all talents at that base, and less effective nerve stapling in the future.

	09-10-2003 09:54									#5
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Basically- useless.

	09-10-2003 10:44									#6
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Quite useful in the very early game on Transcend. If you have a base that grows to size 2 before it can produce a colony pod, say, because of a nutrient bonus, why feed a doctor or keep a garrison when you can nerve staple everyone, lose all commerce for 10 turns (as if you had any), and reap superior production for those 10 turns, by which time the base should be back to size 1? Free market of course nixes this, but you can nerve staple right before going to free market.

	09-10-2003 16:28									#7
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Why keep a garrison? Umm... because of mind worms?

Still, it's true that sometimes you just can't keep up in garrisoning, at least not without sacrificing e.g. pod-popping. Sounds like a cool idea, think I'll try it... (evil grin)

USC

	09-10-2003 20:12									#8
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Be wary of indiscriminate stapling! Stapling is a minor atrocity. Sanctions increase in severity for repeat offenses and Planet remembers!

	09-10-2003 22:07									#9
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"Either way, its completly safe with no permanant effects "

Errr, yeah… at least thats what the Minister of Information said.

It sounds icky. The graphic shows a big X-shaped scar on the forehead. Looks like some sort of lobotomy.

	09-10-2003 23:12									#10
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Oh yeah, even early game nerve-stapling reduces your clean mins limit by one, but that's an indirect boon. It makes it easier to get that first pop before you want to build Tree Farms, at which point losing a couple of free mins becomes trivial.

	12-10-2003 07:51									#11
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I do believe that a nerve stapling is when a little box is surgically affixed to the base of the skull (where your brain meets your spinal cord). The box, I assume, contains an AI or some kind of remote control. The nerve staple then acts as a shunt between your nervous system and your brain. This enables the controller to determine what you feel. It can turn off pain, create intense pain, control moods, and otherwise create a docile human being. From the novels, Hive nerve staples are bulky, painful and disfiguring.
This, of course, can be used for both good an evil purposes. Medical applications would be a temporary nerve staple to remove pain or anxiety and to combat psychological problems, which is also the same application for the military. Understandably, most people would have a problem having this done to them and, in the case of the game, nerve stapling are force upon the entire poplation of the base in order to combat crime and ensure obediance. This is why Talents are removed along with drones. No one's happy to have a Nerve Staple, but everyone must comply with what the Nerve Staple tells you to do. This is also why sanctions are imposed against any faction who uses Nerve Staples; it's a breach of human freedoms and rights. Lal, being Mister UN Human Rights, slaps those sanctions on that faction. I might guess that the psychic trauma of a large population being Stapled would aggrevate the neural net of Planet (which is why atrocities cause extra polution). I hope this answers your question more completely.

	12-10-2003 09:24									#12
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It's faster to just slam a nail-gun on the back of their head and pull the trigger

	12-10-2003 16:03									#13
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Everybody repeat after me :

"Nerve staples are good. They ensure productivity and obediance. I love my nerve staple as if it were my heart."


*shadowy men in the background begin moving forward

	14-10-2003 12:37									#14
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I consider nerve stapling counter-productive as a sustained strategy (sanctions, loss of talent, and diminishing utility as you use it repeatedly in the same city, if I remember correctly)...It's certainly not good in middle stages of the game...Plus, I feel a revulsion toward nerve stapling in general anyway (call it a prejudice if you will)...

There might be exceptional situations where you can talk about a relative gain in factors of production (maybe within the context of what Chaos Theory expressed above) but I'm yet to be convinced about the merits of nerve stapling in general...Btw, I don't remember whether sanctions are imposed on you or whether your reputation suffers when you haven't contacted anyone yet at the time of stapling, maybe in that case you can make a case for it within exceptional circumstances, and that's just maybe...

	15-10-2003 21:40									#15
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Agreed nerve stapling early is a benefical gambit. Consider also nerve stapling early if you are an early game Free Marketeer. Staple just prior to making the switch to Free Market and ride the 10 free turns of drone free issues, thus allowing plenty of time for rush buy of rec commons or completion of HGP or VW without need for 'doctoring'.

As for sanctions as earlier stated "what trade income at that stage?"

As for reputation. Reputation shmeputation I say.

Great bit of advice on the lowering the clean mineral limit. (which is exactly what you want to force as early a pop as possible.)

OTOH, mid and late game stapling is a bit of a problem.

Early game though you just can't beat having 4 formers out there pronto clearing the way for new pod placement, foresting, farming etc.

	15-10-2003 22:12									#16
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** Start rant**

Apparently you gents don’t consider the moral implications of what you are recommending. I find the very idea of nerve stapling repulsive.

This is one of many reasons I shy away from MP games. In that anything goes atmosphere if you don’t commit atrocities (nerve gas, nerve stapling, PBing) you will likely lose since the game mechanics don’t offer any significant penalty in MP for doing so (as OO said: “Reputation shmeputation”). In fact, many consider the ‘penalties’ (eco disruptions, resulting in an effective increase in clean mineral prod and free worms to kill for energy) to be major bonuses, if you’re prepared, that is. Other penalties (loss of trade income) is also irrelevant in many circumstances, too.

The great attraction of SMAC/X for me is the storyline. Do you really want to build a new world on the back of atrocities? Granted, wars in the past here on Earth haven’t been pretty, but one would hope that some of the ‘lessons of Earth’ would be left behind. Otherwise we deserve to be extinct.

Hydro

Some recommendations for MP games:
* Atrocities may not be used by a faction using a democratic government (exceptions in Earth’s past exist, of course), or a Green or FM economic model
* Nerve stapling: may only be used when using a police state government model

Wish-list:
* Fix the fungal bloom = more clean minerals. I consider this to be a bug. It should be exactly the opposite – the more you torture Planet, the more sensitive it becomes and will punish you more by letting you produce less minerals without trigging a nasty environmental (white blood cell) response.
* Fix bug that lets you scrap structures that give bases eco bonuses after building them and then keep the bonus (eg – build Chiron Preserve, get less eco damage, then scrap: rinse and repeat at all bases, saving maintenance and getting scrap value)

****Rant over****

	20-10-2003 01:34									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Hydro 1. This is one of many reasons I shy away from MP games. In that anything goes atmosphere if you don't commit atrocities (nerve gas, nerve stapling, PBing) you will likely lose since the game mechanics don't offer any significant penalty in MP for doing so (as OO said: 'Reputation shmeputation'). In fact, many consider the 'penalties' (eco disruptions, resulting in an effective increase in clean mineral prod and free worms to kill for energy) to be major bonuses, if you're prepared, that is. Other penalties (loss of trade income) is also irrelevant in many circumstances, too. Wish-list: 2. * Fix the fungal bloom = more clean minerals. I consider this to be a bug. It should be exactly the opposite ? the more you torture Planet, the more sensitive it becomes and will punish you more by letting you produce less minerals without trigging a nasty environmental (white blood cell) response. 3. * Fix bug that lets you scrap structures that give bases eco bonuses after building them and then keep the bonus (eg ? build Chiron Preserve, get less eco damage, then scrap: rinse and repeat at all bases, saving maintenance and getting scrap value) ****Rant over****

I agree with Hydro.

1. There are two reasons why I have not started playing MP or partaking in the ACDGs.

First, I'm too cheap (yes, its true, but the honesty doesn't hurt) to part with the 70+ dollars it would take to purchase a copy of SMAX on EBay, since I got the SMAC for less than $20.00 new at retail.

Second, atrocities seem to reign supreme in MP. The use of atrocities seems to make me (for me) less happy with playing the game. I guess I could adapt my play to use atrocities but that kind of goes against my basis for playing the game (that is, the game must be enjoyable).

2. This seems to be an unanticipated 'bug' of the game and should be modifiable.

3. This almost certainly, is an unintended 'bug' of the code writing and should be modifiable. I have evolved my play to max out the manufacture of Tree Farms, Hybrid Forests, and Centuri Preserves (Temple of Planet comes too late to be of much use, I usually Transcend one or two turns after it becomes available) to keep my ecology damage in check, but I consider it to be 'cheating' as well as a less than fully efficient use of my production, to build and scrap my facilities solely to up my clean minerals by one. I usually am such a sprawler (and by the time I become worried about clean mins I am a conqueror) to have enough bases that I do not have to scrap any facilities because I want to rebuild them. Perhaps a modification could/should be made to reduce the clean mins limit by one for every such facility that you scrap, lose, or give away. It would only seem to make sense.


Mead

	20-10-2003 12:58									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Mead Second, atrocities seem to reign supreme in MP. The use of atrocities seems to make me (for me) less happy with playing the game. I guess I could adapt my play to use atrocities but that kind of goes against my basis for playing the game (that is, the game must be enjoyable).

You might be marginally heartened to know that in the current PBEM I'm playing with some people elsewhere, atrocities are quite harshly spoken-of and even killing a base's last garrison (lowering the population by one) is considered "cold-blooded murder." Lots of people have had gas for a while but not a one has used it, out of fear of sanctions and war.

I guess we're not that hardcore on winning (yet!). We, I daresay, are actually almost roleplaying the thing.

But I'm really proud of our group. Even the people playing the Hive shy away from X-Rovers and the like.

	21-10-2003 12:23									#19
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The only time I have used nerve-stapling is as the Hive in SP. They were the second faction I ever played after the Gaians, and I decided what the heck, let's see how it works to control social unrest. It can be effective in SMAC versus SMAX, as there is no cumulative penalty. Of course now I realize why at the end of that game I had so many fungal pops, they had become my primary source of income! It's not a style I am paticularly interested in, but if playing a SMAC (not SMAX) aggressive strategy, where everyone hates you anyway, it makes sense for the story line. The Hive is not my favorite faction, but played correctly it is extremely powerful.

	23-10-2003 08:14									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Nakar Gabab You might be marginally heartened to know that in the current PBEM I'm playing with some people elsewhere, atrocities are quite harshly spoken-of and even killing a base's last garrison (lowering the population by one) is considered "cold-blooded murder." Lots of people have had gas for a while but not a one has used it, out of fear of sanctions and war. I guess we're not that hardcore on winning (yet!). We, I daresay, are actually almost roleplaying the thing. But I'm really proud of our group. Even the people playing the Hive shy away from X-Rovers and the like.

How do you keep the losing factions, once they see the handwriting on the wall that they are losing, from upping the ante and resorting to atrocities?

I guess, if you have infiltration, you could see what they are building and, should they choose to go the atrocity route you, and if you had sufficient supremacy, you could use atrocities yourself to exterminate them. But wouldn't this require the use of atrocities by yourself?


Mead

P.S.

I would like to play a good game, but the availability of atrocities seems to make it shorter and more brutish.

	23-10-2003 08:45									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Mead How do you keep the losing factions, once they see the handwriting on the wall that they are losing, from upping the ante and resorting to atrocities? I guess, if you have infiltration, you could see what they are building and, should they choose to go the atrocity route you, and if you had sufficient supremacy, you could use atrocities yourself to exterminate them. But wouldn't this require the use of atrocities by yourself?

Diplomatic pressure. We threaten war on each other if we commit atrocities, and threaten war on each other for "imperialism" if we angle to wipe someone out. Doesn't mean we don't prune folks considerably... but we haven't yet knocked anyone out.

	23-10-2003 09:38									#22
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I don't like to use atrocities like nerve gas or busters, but I do remember two games where I simply had no choice.
One was when I was playing as the Morgans. it was an SP builder scenario where I could only build 10 bases. I was allied with the Gaians, but when I built a land-bridge between our islands (so I could easily steal tech and such), they canceled the pact and dozens of mindworms poured out towards my core bases. They had the Amp and I had bad Planet rating so I was unable to defend against the tide for very long. What else could I do? I rushed a few nukes and destroyed the land bridge and the entire worm army. Then I took out every Gaian base that didn't have a Project in it with more nukes. It was tough, but the Gaian threat had to be eliminated.

The other SP game, I was the Gaians and the Spartans were threatening me with destruction. I had to stop their nuke production, but my weapons and morale were insufficient. So I built Nerve Gas weapons and reduced their vastly large empire by 2/3.

They were tough calls, but it was the only way to survive. Nerve gas seems cheap to use on a base. I mean, usually people want to keep the pop and the infrastructure. Plus, it's the principle of it. Then again, those players who have no problem using nerve gas and busters when they are not needed are the nearly the same as the players who cheat at other games like Diablo 2: just because they can.

	23-10-2003 11:15									#23
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I rarely use nerve gas and have yet to use planet busters, though I have been the victim of a few PBs. I use nerve gas when I am playing a war-bent faction with little alternative (Spartans), or when I am desperate and have reason to spite my opponent.

For example, in one MP game, an ally broke his pact with me and started hurting me along our shared border, taking my capital and another choice city. I responded with a wave of nerve gas planes, crippling his largest cities and prompting him to quit. The resulting sanctions were enough to sink my hopes for winning, though.

	24-10-2003 12:28									#24
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Nakar Gabab, you and your playing partners sound like fine people to play PBEMs with; I hope I run into you/them in my next one.

I've used nerve gas on the Aliens, mostly because you can, and it really does do a number on them, to the extent that it seems too easy. Also, if you want to take their bases, you don't really want to decimate their population, as they will soon be your population.

A use for nerve stapling that seems to have so far escaped mention is for when you have just taken a moderate sized base minus its previously existing drone control facilities - since it is in the midst of a war zone, you might find yourself anxious to maintain its production for a while so that it can produce stuff in a reasonable timeframe, rather than have to turn most of its workers into specialists and zapping its production. I don't recall if there are extra sanctions for this, as there would be for destroying the base, but there might be.

	24-10-2003 16:52									#25
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No 'extra' sanctions apply to stapling a newly captured base. Doing so is treated just like any other minor atrocity. HOWEVER, if you staple a base of an AI faction (while the captured base flag is till set) that AI will never submit to you...you will have set its 'victim of atrocities' flag. Of course, if its a human opponent in a PBEM, that's a moot point!