09-10-2003 19:00									#31
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We should mark this momentus celebration by extending the institution of marriage to all adults who wish to be married.

	09-10-2003 19:02									#32
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The Mormons will be happy to hear that.

	09-10-2003 19:38									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Anun Ik Oba And 'Human Dignity' is an oxymoron.

It is?

	09-10-2003 20:52									#34
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There is nothing wrong with celebrating the institution of marriage.

But when you try to exclude non-heterosexuals to imply that they are incapable of having family values, you are trying to take away their dignity.

Bush's ignorant proclamation is a vieled attack on non-heterosexuals by explicitly stating that marriage is only between two people of the opposite genders when this is not the case. Many non-heterosexuals have entered into a symbolic union very much similar to marriage.

For Bush to deny that non-heterosexuals do not value their families, is ignorant and hateful.

Oh, and SlowwHand -- this was not meant to be a troll against you. I really did not know if you were alluding to this upcoming event or not.

	09-10-2003 21:00									#35
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That's what I said in one sentence.

	09-10-2003 21:24									#36
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Yeah, so I read.

But I wanted to share my explanation -- I hope that is alright with you.

	09-10-2003 21:32									#37
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I knew you weren't trolling me, or anything.
I just wanted to take the opportunity to bug you.
You know how I am.

	09-10-2003 22:27									#38
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand I knew you weren't trolling me, or anything. I just wanted to take the opportunity to bug you. You know how I am.

Ok -- I just thought you were angry when you typed "badger breath" but I guess you were just poking me in the ribs for fun.



But really, there is no need for this proclamation by President Bush.

	09-10-2003 22:40									#39
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MrFun, the proclamation is OK, only he shouldn't have used it against non-heterosexuals. But that's the Bush administration, what can you do? Always against something or someone.

	09-10-2003 23:01									#40
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We are not so far from another right-winger family lover.
The Marechal Petain.

This guy was convinced that France lost the war against Germany because of the wacky liberal values of Liberte-Egalite-Fraternite (freedom-equality-brotherhood).
He replaced them with the more traditional, conservative values of travail-famille-patrie (work-family-homecountry).

Isn't George prefering homecountry to brotherhood (USA vs UN, aka rule #6 of the 'rule of eight' of the holmites: American 'justice may be dictated' to the world)?
Who cares about the UN. Is that a WoW? No! But the flag: yes!... or, if it's not, then it should be.

Isn't he prefering family to equality: Is there a 'abolition of slavery' day ? or a 'universal sufferage' day ?
Who cares about the the Universal Sufferage? Is that a WoW? No. But the family, yes,... it's even more: it's [i]an intitution[\i] that needs a special day to be remembered. He probably means some kind of great human progess, I guess!?

We do not know if he prefers work to freedom, but we know he prefers security to freedom.

2.5 on 3 on the petainist scale. Not bad.

No wonder he has problems with the frenchies.

	09-10-2003 23:04									#41
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quote: Promoting healthy marriages is great as long as you let everyone get married.

Everyone ought to be allowed to marry someone of the opposite sex.

quote: But really, there is no need for this proclamation by President Bush.

Sure there is. Look at what's happening here in Canada. If you believe in preserving marriage, you ought to take concrete steps like this.

What I like is that Bush recognises the corrosiveness of divorce and seeks to strengthen those marriages already in existence.

	09-10-2003 23:10									#42
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quote: Who cares about the the Universal Sufferage? Is that a WoW? No.

I think you've confused "suffer" and "suffrage"

	10-10-2003 00:06									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Everyone ought to be allowed to marry someone of the opposite sex.

You are wallowing in the mudpit of ignorance by believing that non-heterosexuals cannot appreciate familly values.

	10-10-2003 00:08									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius MrFun, the proclamation is OK, only he shouldn't have used it against non-heterosexuals. But that's the Bush administration, what can you do? Always against something or someone.

I need to find out if there is any civil rights activist organization that has organized a protest during this same week, in which non-heterosexuals can express their appreciation of family values in Washington DC, for instance.

But that would be one example of what we can do to counter this ignorant attack by President Bush.

	10-10-2003 00:15									#45
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quote: You are wallowing in the mudpit of ignorance by believing that non-heterosexuals cannot appreciate familly values.

Just where have I said that?

I ask again, how am I being discriminatory? I ask the same for everyone. Everyone ought to be able to marry someone of the opposite sex.

	10-10-2003 00:23									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Just where have I said that? I ask again, how am I being discriminatory? I ask the same for everyone. Everyone ought to be able to marry someone of the opposite sex.

You're deliberately distorting the argument here.


Everyone ought to be allowed to marry someone of the opposite gender, or someone of the same gender.

If the Catholic Church cannot adapt to contemporary society, then the government should enact legal recognition of a more secular, civil union between people of the same gender.

	10-10-2003 00:27									#47
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if you guys can have gay pride parades, i don't see why straight people can't celebrate traditional family values?!

	10-10-2003 00:30									#48
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Kaak -- there are straight people who families or friends of gays at Gay Pride events all the time.


Here, Bush is deliberately stating that non-heterosexuals are incapable of appreciating family values, thus, excluding them from mainstream society.

	10-10-2003 00:30									#49
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quote: Everyone ought to be allowed to marry someone of the opposite gender, or someone of the same gender. If the Catholic Church cannot adapt to contemporary society, then the government should enact legal recognition of a more secular, civil union between people of the same gender.

why would our government want to do this? it isn't necessarily for the good of society(not that it is bad either). But there if there isn't some motivating factor for it, it likely won't get done.

	10-10-2003 00:31									#50
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I hate cross-posts.

Kaak, I responded to your post before your latest one.

	10-10-2003 00:32									#51
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bah...you can support traditional family values. i'm pretty sure most gay people have mothers or fathers or brothers or sisters, maybe aunts or uncles. The point is, you have a family.

	10-10-2003 00:35									#52
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They use the words "traditional values" to exclude non-heterosexuals from mainstream society. That is, to exclude non-heterosexuals from legal recognition of creating their own, new family.

They hypocritically attack non-heterosexuals for not conforming to mainstream societal norms, then at the same time they seek to exclude non-heterosexuals from mainstream society, preventing them from embracing mainstream values.

How do you justify that??

	10-10-2003 00:39									#53
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the great part about this is that i don't have to justify it, i didn't do it

but for your piece of mind, this can't be what sloww was talking about, the dates don't match up

	10-10-2003 00:41									#54
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Kaak -- read the entire thread. He corrected me on that awhile ago now.

	10-10-2003 00:45									#55
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Oh, and one other thing -- about your point of non-heterosexuals already having a family with the one they were born in??

Many non-heterosexuals are disowned by their family, or alienated from their family in one form or another.
And those who are still accpeted by their family, such as in my case, feel particularly fortunate that we are loved by our family.

In some ways, non-heterosexuals who are accepted by their biological family, have a stronger sense of family values than those who rip families apart over the issue of sexual orientation.

	10-10-2003 00:49									#56
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quote: Many non-heterosexuals are disowned by their family, or alienated from their family in one form or another. And those who are still accpeted by their family, such as in my case, feel particularly fortunate that we are loved by our family.

Well, one of those traditionaly family values that you abhor us celebrating is unconditional love for family members...

Aristotle said it best, not everyone is cut out for being a parent...

	10-10-2003 00:53									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed it's divorces, idiots.

Yeah, we should make women stay in unhappy marriages with abusives spouses!

	10-10-2003 01:30									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak Well, one of those traditionaly family values that you abhor us celebrating is unconditional love for family members... Aristotle said it best, not everyone is cut out for being a parent...

DUH


My point was that many non-heterosexuals DO value unconditional love, but that those same people who appeal to so-called "traditional" family values do NOT value unconditional love, when they tear their own families apart over a family member who is non-hetero.

Unconditional love is very important.

	10-10-2003 01:43									#59
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Why is it, that at times like this, it seems I'm the only non-heterosexual Apolytoner who cares about issues concerning non-heterosexuals?

	10-10-2003 07:41									#60
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I'm hoping that this does not throw society backwards by 50 years . . .