12-10-2003 05:15									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Everyone ought to be allowed to marry someone of the opposite sex.

I disagree! Everyone ought to be allowed to marry someone of the opposite sex, of caucasian decent, more than 5'8 feet tall and less than 6'2 feet tall, with blond hair and blue eyes, and not overweight.

quote: Sure there is. Look at what's happening here in Canada. If you believe in preserving marriage, you ought to take concrete steps like this.

Yes, this is a perfect example.

Unless you restrict marriage to heterosexuals, homosexuals will marry.

When homosexuals can marry, closet faggots will divorce their wives and marry the poolboy.

It will be the downfall of religious western civilization.

	12-10-2003 05:49									#122
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Not only do I not understand how "unconditional love," "unconditional acceptance," and "family/community stability" are radical ideas, but I also do not understand how secular unions between people of the same gender threatens other people's marriages.

	12-10-2003 05:52									#123
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Playing dumb about what "family values" really are isn't going to win you any points, Mr. Fun.

	12-10-2003 05:54									#124
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The problem is that family values is all subjective -- conservatives say that family values means hetero-centric, traditonal families.

Liberals and other groups have different conceptions of what family values entail.

	12-10-2003 06:01									#125
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quote: The problem is that family values is all subjective -- conservatives say that family values means hetero-centric, traditonal families.

Since conservatives are the ones who started to whole "family values" push, I think their definition is the one we should go by.

	12-10-2003 06:07									#126
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"Family Values" is a bunch of bullshit and anyone who is a proponent of a set of unified "Family Values" ought to be compared with Hitler (Godwin's Law).

	12-10-2003 06:17									#127
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nm.

god, i hate dialup.

	12-10-2003 06:20									#128
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quote: i do so hate being connected with hitler simply because i think family is a critically important part of society.

Confucius = Hitler!!!

	12-10-2003 06:21									#129
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"Family Values", as they've been preached these days, revolve around religiously heterosexual viewpoints and forcing that on other people.

"Family Values" shouldn't be confused with people who simply think loving families are necessary. "Family Values" is more about the status quo than about love and respect, which is why it's bullshit.

	12-10-2003 09:21									#130
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Family Values - Read my signature. Nuff said.

	12-10-2003 09:27									#131
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quote: Hate is NOT a family Value!

You've obviously never been around me and my brother...

	12-10-2003 10:50									#132
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I'm getting more and more scared by President Bush's extremist behavior in regards to religion and sexual orientation . . . .

	12-10-2003 21:32									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: The problem is that family values is all subjective -- conservatives say that family values means hetero-centric, traditonal families. Since conservatives are the ones who started to whole "family values" push, I think their definition is the one we should go by.

Why should we allow one group to monopolize this subjective concept for harmful propaganda purposes?

One way to fight this homophobic propaganda approach, is take the words for ourselves, with more inclusive, dignified meaning behind those words.

Look at what homosexuals did for instance, with the pink triangle -- it used to be used by Nazi Germany to publicly designate homosexuals for imprisonment and extermination. Now, homosexuals have taken up the pink triangle for positive, affirmative symbolic use.

	12-10-2003 21:42									#134
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quote: Why should we allow one group to monopolize this subjective concept for harmful propaganda purposes?

Because they invented it? Why are gays so hell-bent on co-opting elements of society that are openly hostile to them? Seems like a waste of effort.

	13-10-2003 03:37									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Why should we allow one group to monopolize this subjective concept for harmful propaganda purposes? Because they invented it? Why are gays so hell-bent on co-opting elements of society that are openly hostile to them? Seems like a waste of effort.

What's wrong if non-heterosexuals want to be included in mainstream society instead of being treated as pariahs or lepers??

	13-10-2003 03:44									#137
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quote: What is so radical about unconditional love? What is so radical about uncondtional acceptance? What is so radical about family and community stability?

None are 'family values' (except family stablity).

quote: Why should we allow one group to monopolize this subjective concept for harmful propaganda purposes?

Like Drake (got the right one this time) said, they invented it. Gays trying to use 'family values' to apply to themselves is like capitalists trying to use 'dictatorship of the proletariat' as a badge of pride.

	13-10-2003 03:46									#138
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Different groups of people will have different concepts of family values.

	13-10-2003 04:23									#139
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quote: fam·i·ly n. pl. fam·i·lies A fundamental social group in society typically consisting of one or two parents and their children. Two or more people who share goals and values, have long-term commitments to one another, and reside usually in the same dwelling place. All the members of a household under one roof. A group of persons sharing common ancestry. See Usage Note at collective noun. Lineage, especially distinguished lineage. A locally independent organized crime unit, as of the Cosa Nostra. A group of like things; a class. A group of individuals derived from a common stock: the family of human beings.

Please tell me where this alludes to including heterosexuals only.

Edit: made dictionary definition a bit prettier

	13-10-2003 07:03									#140
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Mercator -- homosexuals need to be excluded because we are evil incarnate.

	13-10-2003 07:51									#141
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Jesus, now people are pulling out dictionary entries to try to distract from the obvious connotation "family values" has in American political discussion?

quote: What's wrong if non-heterosexuals want to be included in mainstream society instead of being treated as pariahs or lepers??

"Family values" is not a part of mainstream society; it's a rallying point for social conservatives.

	13-10-2003 07:59									#142
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the week in question National Coming Out Week or something like that?

If so, this is an astonishing cheap shot by the White House. Frankly, hard as this might be to believe, it makes me loathe the Bush administration even more... this is just so... tasteless.

	13-10-2003 08:51									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Jesus, now people are pulling out dictionary entries to try to distract from the obvious connotation "family values" has in American political discussion? quote: What's wrong if non-heterosexuals want to be included in mainstream society instead of being treated as pariahs or lepers?? "Family values" is not a part of mainstream society; it's a rallying point for social conservatives.

Ok, if you insist that there is only one, monolithic meaning behind this subjective concept "family values," then let's stick with the conservative concept of "family values."

So I guess we agree now, on this point.

	13-10-2003 08:55									#144
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quote: So I guess we agree now, on this point.

It's about time...

	13-10-2003 08:57									#145
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like, whatever

	13-10-2003 10:33									#146
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quote: "Family Values", as they've been preached these days, revolve around religiously heterosexual viewpoints and forcing that on other people. "Family Values" shouldn't be confused with people who simply think loving families are necessary. "Family Values" is more about the status quo than about love and respect, which is why it's bullshit.

Wow.. I actually agree with Asher on something other than Microsoft .

	13-10-2003 10:45									#147
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I also actually agree with Asher on something.

	13-10-2003 16:11									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Jesus, now people are pulling out dictionary entries to try to distract from the obvious connotation "family values" has in American political discussion?

Well excuse me for not being American. I pulled that out to show that "family values" shouldn't be as obviously hetero-centred as some want us to believe it is. A family is not just about a man and wife.

But...

quote: "Family values" is not a part of mainstream society; it's a rallying point for social conservatives.

I can live with that.

quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the week in question National Coming Out Week or something like that?

That was last week (i.e. the week before).

	13-10-2003 21:40									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: "Family Values", as they've been preached these days, revolve around religiously heterosexual viewpoints and forcing that on other people. "Family Values" shouldn't be confused with people who simply think loving families are necessary. "Family Values" is more about the status quo than about love and respect, which is why it's bullshit. Wow.. I actually agree with Asher on something other than Microsoft .

And if you read all the posts on here, you will find that I agree with you guys, as well.

	14-10-2003 03:36									#150
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Well, it's going to be Marriage Protection Week this week.

Hopefully a couple of homophobic thugs will not attack a homosexual to celebrate "family values" this week.