09-10-2003 23:25									#31
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And they say communists live in dreamland...

	09-10-2003 23:26									#32
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quote: Ramo, I did read the article. Apparently the dock worker makes an enormous amount of money and the Israeli taxpayer is being gouged. The aim of the government corporation is to introduce competition in order that costs eventually go down through productivity increases that would justify the high wages.

They don't want to work for an authoritarian corporation. I don't blame them, I wouldn't either. Some people still value freedom. And actually, the aim of the government corporation seems to be to provide pork.

	09-10-2003 23:38									#33
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Uh?

They already work for an authoritatiian corporation. Only that for once it gives them huge salaries and rapes the state, instead of giving them tiny salaries and raping them.

	09-10-2003 23:47									#34
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Erm, lots of bull flying around....

First... The harbor isn't their property. It's the property of the people of Israel, and the government is their elective representative. HOWEVER, it seems that some very strong interests are in play, that would lead to fact that the government, and in fact, the people, will be schemed out a shitload of money.

In this limited scenario, I have no problem with competition: If people want to establish a harbour which will compete with the government harbour, and the harbours will be economically independent, ok. However, I don't want to see none of the mountains of pork which I already see in the horizon moving into the hands of the priviledged few.

	09-10-2003 23:53									#35
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I'm not saying the harbour is their property. However, the workers would have less power in the management with incorporation.

	09-10-2003 23:58									#36
	Suffering from ads?

OTOH, I don't think they should have so much power over a monopoly.

	10-10-2003 00:02									#37
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The obvious solution is to hand over control directly to the workers.

	10-10-2003 00:08									#38
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How would that be a solution. A private monopoly is a private monopoly. In both cases, the ruling interest is profit, so prices would rise for the entire population.

As to that this particular case, I think what should be done is turning the Port Authority into a regulated Corporation.

	10-10-2003 00:20									#39
	Increase Your PM Length

It need not be a monopoly. And workers have a more direct interest in the public good than stockholders.

	10-10-2003 00:30									#40
	Remove this text

It need not be a monopoly?

In any case, how would those workers purchase A HARBOUR from the government? and why would they have more direct interests in the public good that shareholders?

	10-10-2003 00:30									#41
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quote: And workers have a more direct interest in the public good than stockholders.

So far this has proved to be incorrect seeing how they have rocketed prices sky high and strike as the first step in any dispute. This is like the N'th time this year!

Furthermore, the ministry of finance says that compared to european and american ports, our ports are the slowest and most expensive.

Frankly, I'd trust their data over the populistic fact twisting by the Histadrut anyday.

	10-10-2003 00:38									#42
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quote: they have rocketed prices sky high

Prices for what? Cargo handling? They're still very low. The problem is the fact that the government is the one paying for that.

In my opinion, the correct decision would be to raise cargo handling prices, but that would of course hit the Ofer brothers, and we can't allow THAT to happen.

	10-10-2003 04:15									#43
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--" I think there is lots of pork heading somewhere."

Which is quite likely, but I dislike the thought that one union can bring a halt to the import/export business of an entire country.
Especially when they show themselves willing to strike at the drop of a hat.

These guys would get a lot more sympathy if they weren't carrying out completely unrelated annoyance actions. I did find it rather amusing that some of the strikers were actually doing more work during the strike than before it (example, the customs guys at the airport, who were searching every single bag during the strike, or the guys going around turning off traffic lights).

--"They should keep on striking till they take over the docks from the state."

Won't happen. There's too many other ports nearby. In fact, the government was redirecting ships to ports outside Israel and trucking stuff in.

--"They're not striking over wages, they're striking over control of the means of production."

That may be what that article says, but I saw a number that claimed otherwise.

--"They don't want to work for an authoritarian corporation."

Okay, this comment was very entertaining. Considering they work for the Israeli government, and it is quite common to see Israeli government employees walking around with automatic weaopns, this is the best laugh I've had all day.

Wraith
"In fact he was incurably insane and hallucinated more or less continually, but by a remarkable stroke of lateral thinking his fellow wizards had reasoned, in that case, that the whole business could be sorted out if only they could find a formula that caused him to hallucinate that he was completely sane."
-- Terry Pratchett ("The Truth")

	10-10-2003 04:22									#44
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why should they be anymore profitable, than, say, roads? Roads are absolutely necessary for commerce. So are ports. We only charge user fees on some roads, not all roads. If the fees the port is charging are below average, then your end prices should also be lower. Either way, you end up paying, either in taxes or prices.

its not very hard for roads to be profitable. gas tax.

	10-10-2003 05:58									#45
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon its not very hard for roads to be profitable. gas tax.

That's a public subsidy of the roads. The only way you can make a road profitable is to make it a toll road, and toll roads are profitable.

	10-10-2003 08:00									#46
	Put an end to popups!

And I thought the US government was full of corporate pork...

	10-10-2003 08:08									#47
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quote: Solidarity Forever (Tune: John Brown's Body) (by Ralph Chaplin, January 1915)(9th edition, 1916) When the Union's inspiration through the workers' blood shall run, There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun. Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one? But the Union makes us strong. Solidarity forever! Solidarity forever! Solidarity forever! For the Union makes us strong. Is there aught we hold in common with the greedy parasite Who would lash us into serfdom and would crush us with his might? Is there anything left to us but to organize and fight? For the Union makes us strong. [chorus] It is we who plowed the prairies; built the cities where they trade; Dug the mines and built the workshops; endless miles of railroad laid. Now we stand outcast and starving, 'midst the wonders we have made; But the Union makes us strong. [chorus] All the world that's owned by idle drones is ours and ours alone. We have laid the wide foundations; built it skyward stone by stone. It is ours, not to slave in, but to master and to own, While the Union makes us strong. [chorus] They have taken untold millions that they never toiled to earn, But without our brain and muscle not a single wheel can turn. We can break their haughty power; gain our freedom when we learn That the Union makes us strong. [chorus] In our hands is placed a power greater than their hoarded gold; Greater than the might of armies, magnified a thousand-fold. We can bring to birth a new world from the ashes of the old. For the Union makes us strong. [chorus]

Heh. Silly commies.

	10-10-2003 15:33									#48
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Which is quite likely, but I dislike the thought that one union can bring a halt to the import/export business of an entire country. Especially when they show themselves willing to strike at the drop of a hat.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

quote: These guys would get a lot more sympathy if they weren't carrying out completely unrelated annoyance actions. I did find it rather amusing that some of the strikers were actually doing more work during the strike than before it (example, the customs guys at the airport, who were searching every single bag during the strike, or the guys going around turning off traffic lights).

True that, as well.

quote: That may be what that article says, but I saw a number that claimed otherwise.

In this case, this is very much true.

quote: Okay, this comment was very entertaining. Considering they work for the Israeli government, and it is quite common to see Israeli government employees walking around with automatic weaopns, this is the best laugh I've had all day.

automatic weapons?

In any case, the Labor court has ordered to freeze the legislation for 4 weeks, and ordered the workers to go to work.