10-10-2003 03:12									#1
	To GA or not to GA, that is the question... Got spare money?

As it has become widely apparent, GCA is doing everything in their power not to trigger our GA. From all indication, i.e. the Swordsman Army in Algalord, they will be making their stand at that city. So, on turn 7 or 8 of the war, will be our next oppertunity for triggering our GA ourselves. Why would we want to do this now??

Again, for several reasons, least of which is Predicatability. Knowing when out GA is started (and finished) can allow us to make any neccissary WF changes in the cities, to complete whatever builds with the least amount of wasted sheilds. For instance, this last turn, If that GCA attack hadn't killed our NM, we would have lost a lot of sheilds and wouldn't have been able to recover them, because of where the builds were at that time and the WF configurations that were set at the end of the turn. When we are balancing corruption/waste, Food surplus & net sheild output and net trade, in several cities, especially when a different configuration would have better results when under a GA, it can be a big waste on our first GA turn if GCA triggers it when we least expect it.

Granted, we are further along in the war and the outcome is still in doubt, especially in light of GCA's Great Lib, we are at a point, soon, were the MoI would halt most production on Mil Units, because they would not get to the fighting in time to make an effect, but to start on Regular Improvement builds in our fair cities. A GA in a few turns would shorten this point even more.

Again, as we have seen, GCA is not going to hand us our GA, but we will have to take it for ourselves or we might not get it for quite some time. We know that GWT and CGN are powerhouses in the making and that currently, we don't have a chance unless we get a GA and really soon. We have an FP to build and we have Markets and such, so that we can have better than 1 scientist working on our technologies.

Do we want to have to depend on the other contenent for maintaining our place and rising above it to lead in this game?? I say no and let us get our GA, so that we can become as great as possible.

MoI E_T

	10-10-2003 03:17									#2
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I'd go ahead and post this as a poll thread, but i'd say yes to triggering it this time.

	10-10-2003 03:19									#3
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If the opportunity presents itself, then I would set off our GA. However, I think that GCA will have to set it off as we approach Algalord. Horsemen are not very good at defending. They will do hit and runs on us for as many Horsemen as they have in the area.

We need this war to be over ASAP. We do not need War Weariness setting in. A GA for us will help ensure that unhappiness can be kept in check and that we can severely outproduce GCA to the point that our sheer number of units will overwhelm them.

We will likely be able to attack Algalord without them having Pikes or MI's. They will have those unit types available soon after though. We will need plenty of Cats to make this war less bloody for us.

If GCA doesn't set it off, then we need to do it ourselvs when the opportunity arises.

	10-10-2003 03:22									#4
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Only if we don't have our GA we are able to "prove" that GCA is cheating.

(sorry -- I just read the "is GCA cheating?" thread)

	10-10-2003 03:38									#5
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quote: Originally posted by wervdon I'd go ahead and post this as a poll thread, but i'd say yes to triggering it this time.

As we have several days (with the rate the turns are coming to us), I want to discuss this as much as possible before we post a new poll on the subject.

MoI E_T

	10-10-2003 03:56									#6
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No to GA, if we are given the choice. Let's aim for getting the FP down before we trigger it.

	10-10-2003 04:43									#7
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I'm torn here. I really would prefer to wait on the GA, with only one core active and several cities being disbanded with settlers. But when would we trigger it? Anyone approximations on when the FP is going to be built?

	10-10-2003 04:45									#8
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Kloreep, first off, If we get a GL, then the FP will get built very soon. But if not, then we will have to build from scratch and it will take a while, no matter what.

E_T

	10-10-2003 05:25									#9
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When timing your GA, there always exists the same basic dilemma: now or later?
At first glance, later seems like the most efficient option. "Later we will have an FP", "later we will have banks and universities", "later we will have factories", etc'. But one must also consider external, possibly hidden circumstances, that may lead to conclusions such as "later will be too late for us to catch on" and "later our fate will already be decided, for good or for bad".
If it helps, consider that triggering our GA now also has effects of increased efficiency. For example, we have the FP case at hand. Sure, the GA would give a larger absolute immediate return if we trigger it once the FP is built, but if we trigger it now, we will hurry the production of the FP and of city improvements. A library, for instance, is worth more if it is built 20 turns earlier - you get 20 more turns of the bonus effects out of it, and therefore you get more use and efficiency out of the same amount of shields.

I am a firm believer in the notion that barring special circumstances or unless playing with specific civs (Carthage not being one of them), the best time to trigger your GA is right after the switchover to Republic, or as soon as possible afterwards. Out of all the changes and improvements that you can add to your empire to increase city production output, Republic is among the few changes that affect your entire empire immediately, comes fairly early and packs a huge boost (compared to Despotism), and has one of the greatest relative strength (the most powerful change, I believe, is the introduction of factories, but by then the GA is too late to really make a difference in 95% of the cases).

(Wow, my first informative post in this forum. Yes, I've come out of lurking, so there will be more )

	10-10-2003 05:32									#10
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Sorry for the newb questions, but could someone please answer me:
What are our plans for FP placement? Will they be affected if we get a GL in the near future?
We're not quite swimming in elites, and it looks to me like not a lot of our units will be fighting more than twice this war, given our large number of troops; so I'm assuming that we're not banking on a GL.

	10-10-2003 06:03									#11
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Yah, I'm not counting on getting any GL's, but I can still hope....

As for the FP, it's down to 2 places, Karina and the New city that will be south of the current Cuido de Alcohol (when it's moved). The Palace (when we move it) will be either in GCA's area, or if we go and take out CFC, at Sodapolis. These placements give us 2 good cores and outlying areas that are fairly good producers.

But for the FP, I'm starting to lean more for Karina.

MoI E_T

	10-10-2003 06:24									#12
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Personally, I don't think proof of GCA cheating or not cheating should factor into any of our decisions on what to do in the game.

1) I don't want to hurt our efforts to win the game for that purpose.
2) I don't think any degree of statistical proof will ever really matter. That is there will always be a degree of doubt in a lot of peoples minds, and I doubt the UN would do anything anyways.

	10-10-2003 06:25									#13
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I believe a GL on the FP if it is close to Apolyton would be a tremendous waste. If the city can produce on it's own, perhaps with added pop, then the FP gets done in a reasonable time with the help of worker adds at most..

Alternatively... Sun Tzu's could save us a lot of gold over the course of the game, and have the added bonus of making smaller cities eligible for building or rushing vet forces if the need arrises.

The Hanging Gardens, at this point in time, would allow us to 0 the lux slider. It would allow larger cities with lower lux slider later as well. It too would be a major gold bonus for us.

As for where the FP... that's way off topic for the thread.

Back to topic, our GA at just about any time now would be good. Either the forces we have largely built will do the job with GCA and we can devote more of the GA to city improvements, or the extra kick of the GA could drive us over the top in the war. Either way, winning the war is the ONLY priority right now IMO, so let's get it done.

PS, the point at which I feel we are done building military is the point at which we have met a major force of GCA in the field and have sent them to meet their makers.

	10-10-2003 13:29									#14
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The wonder I think that would be the most powerful, if we could rush it, is Leonardo's Workshop.

I'm not against rushing our Forbidden Palace with a GL, should we get one, however. It largely depends on how far away said FP is going to be from our capital's current location. Assuming we want to build the FP somewhere around where Cuido de Alcohol currently stands, then it's questionable whether it's worth rushing it with a GL rather than just building it normally (working up the population with the use of worker joining to the new city).

Afterall, Leonardo's Workshop would save us GOBS of cash over the course of the game.

As for our Golden Age, if we do not trigger it with Numidian Mercenaries during the present war, I don't see very many possibilities for triggering it in the future other than through wonders. If so, we need a commercial wonder and an industrious wonder. This means whether we get our Golden Age and WHEN we get it will largely be determined by competition for wonders with other civs, including such key wonders as Hoover's Dam (Industrious). Do we really want to have to rely on that for starting our Golden Age in a multiplayer game? The other human players aren't just going to roll over for us and let us build the wonders we need...

	10-10-2003 18:35									#15
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The "ideal" is to have your GA to take you from a good position to a winning one. However, sometimes you need the GA just to get to the good position. I think that is the case here. If we see an opportunity to trigger our GA ourselves, I think we should.

-Arrian

p.s. A GL should be held and used for a Palace move down south. The FP should be built in the jungle near Apolyton during our GA. Don't you think? The corruption reduction would surely be worth more than Sun Tzu or Leo's, unless the game is going to end quickly. Since we (or the opposition) will most likely need to mount an intercontinental invasion to win, I think this game is going to last a while.

	10-10-2003 19:06									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian A GL should be held and used for a Palace move down south.

Why use a Leader when the same thing can be accomplished with a Palace jump?

Another topic: how likely is it that GCA survives all the way until Chivalry? With the Great Library they're hoping for 2 things: 1) Pikemen, and 2) War Elephants. Their plan is that the first gets them to the second.


Dominae

	10-10-2003 22:54									#17
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Given that now we'll be facing Pikes instead of Spears in the near future, I also am in favor of triggering our GA. Sadly this means we'll have to spend a bigger part of it on unit production but under the circumstances I guess it is better than risking a slow battle of attrition.

As for Leo's, as a warmonger, I know Leo's is a game-winning wonder. Upgrading knights for 40g is just priceless. However, do we plan on winning this by warmongering? Could we use it for another wonder instead? (say JS Bach's). I have one big reason why Leo's is actually good for us: if we get Leo's, that means GWT and CGN WON'T get them, and should either one of them get Leo's it will give them a relative advantage towards the other that given their less-than-stellar relationship, will likely use it against the other.

The FP around Cuido could benefit greatly by our GA. After that we can force a WLTKD until it is done. As for the palace, definitely a jump. We have nothing in Apolyton that needs to be preserved.

	10-10-2003 23:29									#18
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Keep in mind that Leonardo's Workshop is not only a warmonger wonder. If you're a builder and you want to use as many shields as possible on IMPROVEMENTS, building your army only ONCE and then spending less money to upgrade them each age is much better than re-building your entire military every age or paying enormous amounts of money (better spent on science) upgrading your existing army.

Even though Leondardo's itself costs a lot of shields, it's worth the shield expense. IF you get it for FREE with a Great Leader, it's worth A LOT.

Whether warmonger or builder, Leondardo's is especially powerful.

	11-10-2003 00:55									#19
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I agree with building Leo's and I agree with jumping the palace. But wouldn't doing both be a problem? Granted, it's a while to Invention, but Great Wonders royally screw palace jumping tactics IIRC. So, if we want to conquer CFC and build the palace toward their end of the continent, we won't be able to jump.

On the other hand, if we want to jump the Palace to somewhere in GCA's current territory, that could be perfect. Just rush Leo's in the city we want to jump the palace to and disband Apolyton.

	11-10-2003 01:25									#20
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Dom,

Ah, right, palace jumping... gotcha. Never done that myself, and it slipped my mind.

In that case... yeah, Leos would be a nice thing to have.

Though the thing we need most is time. Time to cut down that jungle and grow our cities. Too bad the Pyramids is on the other continent. We could use that in a big way.

-Arrian

	11-10-2003 02:05									#21
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Wonders are not really that important in the Palace jump formula, IIRC. Population is the key factor. I'm confident we can Palace jump without incident...it will just be expensive to do so (but not 600 Shields expensive).

Invention is a tad far away to keep a Leader around so long. Then again, how many Elite battles will we be fighting? It might just be worth it to forego the chances of additional Leaders for the rest of the war with GCA in order to ensure we secure Leo's.

I bet GWT has a nice prebuild on Leo's at this point.


Dominae

	11-10-2003 02:14									#22
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Banana could build a Market Place and then begin a pre-build for Leo's. When our GA kicks in, we will get to it first.

Karina looks like a very good spot to build the FP.