11-10-2003 01:28									#1
	Immigration, taxing, businesses.. Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I just noticed something. I've thought about it earlier, but today I really had to again experience it.

I got hungry and it was late (over 2200, everything is closed), so I thought, I'll get some kebabs.. Then I remembered, wait a minute we don't have those here.
Only thing was the god damn Hesburger (burger joint), had to wait 10 minutes in the drive-in, which had two cars before me waiting there. 10 minutes for a burger and freedom fries! Drove 5 minutes to home and fries were cold, burger was wrapped on a paper and there was mayonese all over the paper, sloppy and very unsatisfactory.

I like these ethnic restaurants, in the US for example and in most parts of Europe, no problem you got them. But in our homogenic area... sure in Helsinki and few other bigger cities you can choose what countries food you want, but anywhere else.. man you're lucky if you find anything.

But then I realized, no wonder.. I imagine how frustrating it must be for immigrants here and even refugees, some of them would have the skills to make a restaurant and their local foods, but they don't have any money, savings.. but they're trying to make jobs from themselves, and enrich our food culture, and people here like these places they are packed all the time... Nepalese, Indian, Moroccon, Italian, Chinese.. you name it. They get taxed so hard they can't afford even starting a business. What's the point of doing it when state takes half in taxes. It's like an angry fat uglyface ex-wife who screams 'I WANT HALF!' even if she never put a dime to the family. How these people get loans from banks to start those little businesses?

So, it's tough to put up restaurants like that in here, even small ones. Why don't we encourage them? Give them tax reliefs so they can start those, I mean good ones and really make them put up those places, since many of these people that don't have jobs now can't get one anyway. Why? And these restaurants would then compete with our locals, forcing them to really put an effort too. I like these restaurants, they are always so nice and you can see they have their hearts in it... They have to, so people will keep coming.. and you know, they usually hire their families to help them, and they pay taxes, more tax money in the ending, more competition and businesses.. why not?!

Another thing. How come we speak about needing tens of thousands of foreigners to work here, if our own unemployment is not getting better? Hundreds of thousands are out of a job, how come we need that?

I understand we need foreigners to work, and that's good. But what does this mean? I tell you what it means.

It means getting cheap labour. That's all there is to it. Then starts the 'salaries to the ground' competition, and citizens have it even worse after that, getting them jobs.
We are not talking about getting some of that collective brain capital here, them really smart people. Who the hell would come here, pay the taxes and get lowest salaries from high quality jobs? They don't, unless they really love us. So that means we get the ones doing cleaning the public bathroom typs of workers. They'd make so crap money, they'd barely survive. In minimum wage you barely survive anyway. So they'd have to live in certain areas, that are cheaper ('ghettos'). Now we have those tens of thousands underpaid workers there, living in troubled areas, frustrated.. man, this is ASKING for troubles IMO. So, it's fair to say we suck some hairy butts, and keep on doing so until we realize that we need to actually start thinking of long term benefits, how to make benefits for people, encouraging them etc.

But it won't happen.

	11-10-2003 01:29									#2
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I'm telling you, the way these lefties and liberals wants our country to go... *suicideicon*

	11-10-2003 01:57									#3
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When you say "liberals" do you mean left-of-center or right-of-center?

quote: Another thing. How come we speak about needing tens of thousands of foreigners to work here, if our own unemployment is not getting better? Hundreds of thousands are out of a job, how come we need that?

I don't know. Unemployment's pretty bad in Finland. You're right. Probably Finns are unwilling to work the crap jobs.

But the "race to the ground" wage problem isn't much of a problem. The US has a heck of a lot more immigration than does Finland, and the poor still get richer in most years.

	11-10-2003 02:13									#4
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Well, it's difficult for me to explain it to you so you'd understand it for sure from my mumblings, but our lefties are not communists, or closer to communists than someone else even though they are left, but then again our righties could be considered lefties in the US, and in the center.. even tougher one to describe .

And you're right, some folks are unwilling working in crap jobs. Why would they, welfare pays the same amount, almost. But then again there are some people too who really can't even find those bad jobs either.

Sure sure, but you see, we don't get the competitive foreigners here with this. We are having a problem of having so many highly educated and skilled people, even they can't get jobs they are trained for. And we DO have foreigners, like refugees, who have been living here for a longer time, so I don't know their official status but are trained doctors, and have practiced somewhere else in their times, and skilled ones too. I still remember reading about specialist who in here couldn't get a job, so he now cleans bathrooms at minimum wage, and there is no future in his career here ever. Different standards, different education, but we would benefit so much of giving this guy a short training to modify the skills to our standards. These people are not stupid even if they come from lower income etc countries. Instead, we have started doing a transfer training etc to nurses, so they can be almost doctors.
Things like this, it's really very stupid and I don't see why this is how we do it. We need to harness these skills here.

So, should we expect a race to here from all over the world, skilled highly educated people to take crap jobs? They would get better salaries and lower taxing in most countries, so why they'd choose this place, which is also known to be cold and dark for foreigners, and expensive? Why? What is the trick, what is the attraction? There IS NONE!

So it clearly means getting people to work these crap jobs. But is this a good model? No it is not. We should think of ways to make these jobs filled also, with our own unemployed, or our own immigrants. And when we get these new workers from other countries, we should pay them the same amount of money as we pay for our own. Pay for the skill and effort, not based on your nationality. That just sucks. And it will bring us down, eventually. And this is the way of making the poor even poorer for sure, and the rich richer. I see absoltely 0 benefits of this model. What do we gain? Nothing. We only make the situation worse.

	11-10-2003 02:15									#5
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The bigger problem is, we are not attractive choice, we are not competitive with other countries. We are not the best or one of the better options even for other businesses to invade here. Lack of competition in every area of life is our weak point.

	11-10-2003 02:16									#6
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quote: Things like this, it's really very stupid and I don't see why this is how we do it. We need to harness these skills here.

Well, to hear you tell it, the skills of Finns themselves are not harnessed. Why would immigrants' skills be more utilized?

	11-10-2003 02:23									#7
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You're correct there.. but I don't think we have doctors as cleaners.. in this particular case you see, we have problem of having enough doctors.
But in other areas, you're correct. And that's just stupid too you know, why are there not enough jobs for highly skilled people? Because there are no jobs for them, there are not enough businesses etc to hire them. So we need to create more businesses, but since everyone is thinkign about setting their base to Estonia once it is EU member because of the lower taxing etc.. it's a problem.

And since you can't get a good job without being skilled here, it's mcdonalds or cleaning if you're don't have your masters degree, ... it's not very motivating, and the other jobs that don't require 40 of school, you know they don't get paid very much either, so many people want to go to school, so they at least have potential in theory to make it good. But when everyone is some kind of leader and boss, then no one respects enough the not-so-educated peoples working effort, which keeps this country up and running.

And then again, no one respects high education either, since so many people have it. In my eyes, it's a lose-lose situation. We need to make more benefits for the traditional jobs, so people want to study them as well, they should be able to make more money so they can consume and get nicer things if they work hard. We need to create more business also for the highly educated people, more businesses, and that means lowering taxing of the businesses, at least the smaller ones. But this won't happen here. We keep on hitting our heads together with the same issues, with the same methods, nothing new is tried.

	11-10-2003 02:27									#8
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For example, I'm getting MD as software engineer. I'll be looking at doing some crappy help tech service with 1800 euros per month for few years and rise in the ranks all the way to some crappy 'team leader', have my own crew of 16 year old summer workers and see that they answer the phones when they do the tech support, and if I'm super lucky, I get to do some programming for 2200 euros a month for the rest of my life. That's ok, but the point is, everyone else is the same too. And if I didn't have that MD, the highest I'd ever go is the tech support with 1600 euros per montj for the rest of my life.

edit: if you read this 'he is asking the moon from the sky and million dollars a year without effort' then you got it wrong. That wasn't the point.

	11-10-2003 02:35									#9
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So this is my way of saying, there are too few businesses and too many highly skilled people to fight for the places. This guarantees, that the ones getting the good jobs are good, and most likely deserve that place beating the other candidates. But this brings a huge problem that is in here. The employer and business has way too much power in there hands and can dictate too much, because they can get anyone else to work there in the same day. That's ok too, you show results or go away, but since there are not many good businesses, it leads to a situation for example businesses just don't raise workers salaries even if they could and should. This thing too keeps the salaries low, even in good companies that makes good profits. If I was an employer, I wouldn't have to put much effort to get someone doing the job if it requires high skills, I could most likely dictate what ever I want, since skilled people are lining up and some of them are desperate for job.

SO, obviously we need more businesses! But high taxing keeps that option in the backround.

	11-10-2003 02:42									#10
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Are you suggesting that the lack of ethnic restaurants, or the underutilization of immigrant skills, is just a symptom of Finland's lack of merit economic reward? Further, are you saying that this lack of merit economic reward is due primarily to high taxation?

	11-10-2003 02:51									#11
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That's the problem with lefties and high taxes. Together with importing foriegn workers for cheap labour and giving very high state funds to unemployed people, it sounds like Israel.

	11-10-2003 02:58									#12
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That's difficult to say. I guess even I can't simplify it that much and say it is so.. but I do believe it has something to do with it. As of now, we are still out there to compete with other businesses around the world, but it's already pretty clear that there are not very many new businesses coming and making success like bigger companies. The ethnic restaurants things was just one obsevation I made today.. If we give tax benefits and lower taxing and really encourage foreign people to put up more restaurants, I'm 100% there will be new restauranst, which further helps them to hire their families and friends who are out of jobs, and even one day hire us citizens too, and people like to eat in these places, so it's not like they'd most likely fail because people don't want to come.

In many areas there are problems of lack of competition. It's not good for the people. I like more choices, I like to choose from which business I buy my services, based on their quality and pricing strategies. I really do like that. I'd like it that I could just stop being someones customer and go to another place if I so choose because their services didn't satisfy me.

I'm taking some courses of business (this won't make me expert of this subject) and I still haven't met a person who thinks the politics of handling businesses, especially new businesses is NOT sucking hairy butts.
Everyone is discourages after taking those courses when they calculate some figures, do their math and all that. Most of them go 'taxing, won't even try, good thing I realized it now before it was too late'. etc etc..
Even our own teacher who is tutoring our group said that this is not working and it only gets worse by the day.

There are few companies that makes it good in the world, but we need more. We don't necessarily mean the magnitude of them, but we need more smaller ones. Way more. We need to create money. Recycling the pennies won't work for long anymore.

	11-10-2003 03:01									#13
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Damn Siro.. I wasn't aware of that . As if you didn't have enough problems to begin with.

We should establish our own party if we have more same views.. backed by Susie Q's.

	11-10-2003 03:08									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

And if I would put a business in here, I'd do exactly the thing that will hurt us even more, establish it in Estonia. Then put up few offices here. Virtually no taxing there.
This makes my competiveness better against other 'suckers', so that's something to think about. And after more people do the same, then you have to do it in order to just survive. Why not? It gives me better chances of making the business grow and actually make profit. It would take me about one hour to get there, and another hour to get back here. Distance is no problem. Logisticwise.. no problems. Work force? No problems.

There are two ways to make it. If you make a product, it is likely someone else is making it too. It is also likely, that your product is not significantly better, so you get the others customers to you like that (snaps fingers). So the key is to make the price lower keeping the quality about the same. So, Estonia my friend, you save so much costs there, it makes you more attractive right there.

Or, you need to make something that no one makes, and that's another story. With that, you could prolly do business in here only too, if no one makes it. But that's unlikely.

	11-10-2003 03:56									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I can't believe I read everything you just posted Pekka.

You are right though, high taxes are stifling the economy of your country. Think about it this way - who is going to spend the money more wisely, the person who earned it or someone from the government who just collects taxes no matter how bad of a job he is doing? Obviously the person who earned his/her money will appreciate the effort they put into earning it. I'm not saying we should get rid of taxes altogether, but they should definitely be a lot lower.

	11-10-2003 04:00									#16
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How is Randy Berliner business going?
Just don't tell me Finland is overtaxing the porn industry at the moment

	11-10-2003 04:18									#17
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Caligastia, absolutely. And in our case.. we need the tax money badly to keep the services going on, so I'm not talking about lowering them to the level of 20%.. Something more realistic and moderate, but that needs to be the direction. We need to start from somewhere and we need to start soon.......

VetLegion, it's going OK I guess.. I've been writing and thinking up scenarions where this hero will go and what he experiences, but as of yet I've been unwilling to put it online like I want it, because I think it's nto good enough yet. I have big pictures.. Randy is about to become a legend! And if I was to do business with it, I'd owe more money than make

	11-10-2003 04:31									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Caligastia, absolutely. And in our case.. we need the tax money badly to keep the services going on, so I'm not talking about lowering them to the level of 20%.. Something more realistic and moderate, but that needs to be the direction. We need to start from somewhere and we need to start soon.......

I don't think 20% is unrealistic. If you look into the massive waste within government departments and services, you'll want taxes even lower. Believe me, I work for the US govt, and I see terrible waste every day. The more taxes you pay, the more of that tax money will be wasted.

	11-10-2003 04:38									#19
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Sure in time.. but even smaller ones would be better than no change at all. At least apply that to the small businesses, and medium. If that works out and we see positive things happening, then try lowering more, and try that to bigger companies at some point also. But damn something.