11-10-2003 04:41									#1
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Indeed.

Arnelos, BigFree and I where, being the REAL big leaders of this world, in case you didn't know it already, discussing the future of this world and the result of this discussion is really interesting.
Here is the chat report:

quote: Aidun> But to go back on topic... Are we going to change our strategy in this war? Suggestions, arguments... Aidun> Arnelos, BigFree? Arnelos> yes? BigFree> yo Aidun> Are we going to change our strategy in this war? Suggestions, arguments... Arnelos> hmm... Arnelos> I think we should, tactically, at least Arnelos> but I haven't seen the save itself Arnelos> so I'll let that be the judge BigFree> We dont have many options BigFree> its either turtle or take chances Aidun> BigFree, do you know the info that Arnelos told me just some tima ago? BigFree> new info? Arnelos> probably not, I just got it in a PM from GS Arnelos> ND is sending galleys around the continent BigFree> ah BigFree> Where are they now? Arnelos> also, we still haven't seen GoW's reinforcements... my bet (and GS is afraid of this) is that they're stockpiling them to our northwest to invade either GS area to the east or to storm Pamplona Arnelos> GS was not specific on the location of the galleys.. I want to ask them in chat BigFree> k Arnelos> they did mention that they should be able to handle it, though BigFree> I would think so Arnelos> they have a HUGE fleet Aidun> I got the folowing proces in my brains: Then I wonder why they are taking such an enormous risk. Is there a hole in the defense of our and GS's territory? Or is this the scenario of which Aggie spoke, in the thread about sharing the save? BigFree> I think the ND Galleys are to try and sink GS Galleys with units on them Arnelos> Aidun - what is this Aggie spoke about? BigFree> The ND are likely empty BigFree> * Galleys' Arnelos> BF - agreed Arnelos> (about the galleys) Aidun> That GoW would invade Estonia while GS's Army was away on Bob Arnelos> I'm sure they're thinking about that BigFree> I think GS has a good assorsment of forces up near old Vox BigFree> they are threatening GoW with them Arnelos> yes, they do... because GS is planning to invade GoW BigFree> That's the best way to handle this war BigFree> Put GoW on the Defensive Aidun> Aggie presented it like they had been planning that scenario before the war had even begun. That is but not true because they did not expect us to ally with GS. Arnelos> my recommendation when I spoke to NYE was that GS send their forces toward GoW's city core and just tear up everything... don't conquer, DESTROY... we need to damage their production capacity Arnelos> GS can afford to resettle stuff later BigFree> of course Aidun> It's far too risky to just occupy the city because you have to leave troops in it, likely cavalry because a kind of a blitz attack on GoW territory will not succeed with infantry slowing you down. BigFree> The longer this battle goes, the better things look for Lego. Aidun> * the city = cities BigFree> I think Lego will end up winning this thing Aidun> BigFree, right Aidun> I honestly hope not, they don't deserve it, they haven't fought for it. BigFree> I know BigFree> being isolated has helpped them immensely BigFree> Plus the fact that all other Civs have warred Aidun> right BigFree> wars cost you big time Aidun> Even RP BigFree> While everyone is at war, Lego builds happily BigFree> I'll bet Lego even has a FP Aidun> There will be but one chance to eliminate Lego: when we have military tradition. Cavalry as offense remains for long Aidun> the problem is but nationalism. BigFree> yep Aidun> they will get it sooner than we BigFree> And Lego has huge tech lead now BigFree> brb Aidun> I wonder however, if they are able to defeat a massive attackforce of two united continents Aidun> whatever civs win this war, they are about to attack Lego asap and together they have far more productioncapacity than Lego by that time. Arnelos> Lego's primary weakness will be an invasion of a stack of doom prior to railroads Arnelos> a stack of doom need only pass through Lego territory and RAZE cities, destroying everything they've built Arnelos> even if only a few cities are successfully destroyed before Lego has a chance to kill off the stack of doom, the damage will be done Aidun> I hope for lego that they realize that after this war the time of real world war has started BigFree> who will do that? Aidun> *has come BigFree> Who will have the resourcs? BigFree> I'm not sure anyone will have a SOD to send Arnelos> BF - whoever wins this war may well have them by the time of the late Middle Ages Aidun> only saltpeter and horses are needed for that BigFree> and the Ships to send them Arnelos> BF - GS has an enormous fleet ALREADY Arnelos> ND is building one Aidun> BigFree, If we win, World War 1 will start on that day Arnelos> the point is that even if Lego has superiority, their continent is HUGE and I'll bet they ahve 5-tile spacing... a drop of a ton of mobile units like Cavalry could tear that place apart BigFree> Yes, but if this turns into a cold war (GS/RP versus ND/GoW) then those resources will be tied up Aidun> Yes Arnelos> BF - true Aidun> right Arnelos> Which happens to be Lego's aim BigFree> yep Aidun> If this does not end in a victory for either side Lego will win. BigFree> and I see it ahappening already Aidun> BigFree, a professor taught me about China and Europe in the 17th century BigFree> If we had not started the "Westward Expansion Movement" we would be in a much better position now. Arnelos> possibly BigFree> We popped out 6 settlers and ~10 workers BigFree> thats a lot of prodution and missed production BigFree> Wait, it was 8 Settlers, includin the ones from Madrid Arnelos> I don't know if I was around for that part... don't think I was... I was one of the ones helping to plan city locations, but I think I left before E_T got in a fight with the rest of the team over how to do it BigFree> Plus, we never went though with our plans to attack ND before they got to Chiv Arnelos> GoW had a lot to do with that BigFree> yes, we counted on them to much Arnelos> as far as I've heard BigFree> *too BigFree> We should have planned and executed an assault before ND got to Chiv Arnelos> it honestly was only worth doing if we knew GoW would strike them from behind... we simply didn't have the NUMBERS to do it otherwise BigFree> If we had severly weakened ND, perhaps GoW would have not sided with them and just acted opportunistic and finnished them off in the North Aidun> Chna was big and powerful, a strong centralized state. Europe was divided in little competing Kingdoms and teared up by several big wars. When the European nations decided to 'cooperate' (i mean no real war anymore), however, they gained an enormous advantage: together they quickly researched and exchanged research. in 1800, Europe was although divided, far more advanced than China and in 1900 even the most powerful continent in the world. You see the clue? Arnelos> perhaps Arnelos> Aidun - possibly, but that requires that we establish a lasting peace (of a sort) on Bob... which is going to take time Aidun> to make it clear: Lego=China Arnelos> Aidun - we got it ;p BigFree> Aidun> ok Aidun> Aidun> crosspost Arnelos> funny thing is... a lasting peace at the end of this war is exactly what my aim is, if it's possible Arnelos> Vox Controli is, I believe the key to that Arnelos> I'd like to give them Northwestern GoW Aidun> but yes, that takes a lot of time and diplomatic problems will occur BigFree> To get ND and GoW to go after Lego because of what we have dicusse is not entirely impossible. But, the only way I would believe it would be for GoW and ND to give RP back her cities. Arnelos> BF - that's the OTHER possibility Arnelos> if we really want to go after Lego Arnelos> but I honestly think that an RP/GS "victory", if possible, is the better choice... if GS *wins* this war, the expense of resources will have been worth it. Aidun> Which they won't do. Therefor we have first to build up a large force and GS would do a good job with atacking GoW homeland to bring them into a position that they are about to give us back what the took from us. Arnelos> if we can't "win", then we may have to settle for what Aidun suggests BigFree> possibly BigFree> I have to go to work BigFree> adios Arnelos> cya Aidun> ok cya another day BigFree> time for work, adios * BigFree is now known as BigFree|Away

Summary:
- ND is sailing around Spain for an unknown purpose, several tactics are possible.
- Lego is likely to win under the current circumstances.
- If we remain at war for too long, Lego will profit a lot of that.
- If noone of the alliances will win this war, Lego shall win, unless we would all unite with the sole purpose of eliminating Lego.
- World War 1, the war of the remaining nations, shall more or less start on the day that one alliance defeats the other one. It may start as a cold war, but will soorner or later, rather sooner, result in real war.
- Our only chance to eliminate Lego is during the "Age of Cavalry", after cavalry and before the discovery of infantry. Nationalism is an obsacle to this.
- The key strategy is to drop a massive force of cavalry on Legoland and just destroy, but before railroads are built.

Aidun

	11-10-2003 17:06									#2
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If I understand correctly, during the chat the idea of uniting the 4 nations (GS, RP, ND and GoW) against Lego is suggested. It would probably work if it were possible. Honestly I don't belive that GoW or ND can be trusted to that point. Our "alliance" would be too weak and have too many internal issues to be successful. And on the other hand, which paper would we play with just a few cities? Of course that's just my opinion.

I agree much more on the idea of attacking Lego if we defeat ND and GoW. After all they deserve it for the way they have been treating us.

	11-10-2003 19:00									#3
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It is not an idea to stop this war and form a Grand Alliance of GS, GoW, ND and RP with the single purpose of weakening Lego so it is no longer a threat, it is a possibility, like there is another possibility that one of the alliances wins (hopefully ours).

It are options and nothing more.

But to me and to Arnelos and BigFree too, it seemed interesting to write down some optional scenarios. Lego is a big threat to the entire world and during this war we have to keep that in mind. Sooner or later, rather sooner, we will face an advanced Lego.

It is not likely that Lego will use its eventually technically better developped army to invade other continents, they are too less imperialistic for that, but staying ahead of everybody will make them win.

Aidun

	11-10-2003 19:26									#4
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As builders they probably will prepare their continent terribly well to stand an invasion. It would be very hard but very interesting to attack them!

On the other hand, if our alliance wins the war, invading Lego is the most logical option.

	12-10-2003 02:08									#5
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It is our only option to win because Lego is a lot more advanced. I believe that even if Lego would gift us all technology they would have by that time, they will still win simply because they have a lot more improvements than we have.

This is why I think that World War I, the war with Lego will start on the day that this war ends.

Aidun

	12-10-2003 05:00									#6
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If lego is smart they are building thousands of fortresses and boats and units. They also know when this is over there will be a gap of time where they will be vunerable and open to attack and that the world will rush to take advantage of it.

	14-10-2003 01:54									#7
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Worse comes to worse - ICBM and tac-nuke them. There will be a short gap - very short - where we should be able to catch up technologically towards the middle or end of the industrial period - many researching and trading vs only one. We will have a short time period to gather and launch several nukes against their cities and infrastructure. It will be a last resort of course, but without a lot of their population they may not be able to research all the needed tech and build the spaceship parts.

I see the war on bob ending in the near future. We will have to take risks and ignore our own old cities and go for the jugular..... one of these days, I will look at a save again and help out with a battle plan.

	15-10-2003 01:57									#8
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I have had a long chat with OPD of Gathering Storm in which I have informed him of some of this information. We have continued discussion on my idea for how we could build a GS-RP-Lego alliance agianst GoW and have a treaty for the end-of-war situation that is workable for all involved parties, including giving additional land to Vox Conroli.

The next step is to talk to ZargonX from Legoland again to see how things progress there and to inform him that Gathering Storm seems (for now) very receptive to the idea for a builder endgame following the stomping of Glory of War (since they would never live peaceably in a builder endgame).

The delay of the game may be just what we need to string this together...

	15-10-2003 10:02									#9
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Had another chat with ZargonX:

- I attempted to impress upon him the direness of our situation
- I imparted to him that we now believe GoW and ND will strike us at Pamplona with a very large force of riders in the next few turns.
- I told him that if Pamplona falls to a wave of Riders and Ansar Warriors, RP Team will be unable to hold its front and the collapse of that front might seriously damage GS's attempt to continue its hold on a piece of Bob, granting the entire continent to ND and GoW
- ZargonX reports that discussion has been somewhat active in their chat channel, but that their forum has been somewhat dead. He is going to attempt to rekindle as much discussion as he can on this (or so he claims)
- ZargonX said that their number one fear is a 2-civ Bob, "a scary prospect".
- I made it clear that if GoW and ND take Pamplona with this next wave that's coming, a 2-civ Bob is very very very near. The only good way to avoid that is to help us before it hits.
- What we think Lego has best to offer, should they believe it is in their own interests to do prevent a 2-civ Bob, is technology. RP Team, for our sake, is in such a dire situation that we'd be willing to accept any such aid with little regard for the impact of "cost" on our chances for "winning" the game, as that's already long since been shot.
- I told ZargonX that I had spoken with Gathering Storm about GS offering Legoland incense. (I need to chat with GS again about not giving them said incense for free, of course... they only get it as part of an agreement to aid us... at the minimum with gunpowder, once they're willing to admit they have it, of course).
- ZargonX says that they have largely abolished the "Presidency" and gone to a consensus system. The members of this group that are reliably active are ZargonX, Kloreep, Sharpe, vondrack, Tiberius, and Redstar. Nimitz, Rendelnep, and Nuclear Master come in and out.

Exceptionally little accomplished, but that's mostly because, as ZargonX was sure to point out to me, they now operate on a "consensus system", which basically means all decisions are made by committee and nothing will ever get decided quickly or efficiently. It's a damn good thing this game is stalled or we'd never hear back from them in time to do anything useful. I pointed out to ZargonX that hte stall int eh game offers a PERFECT opportunity to hash out what they need to in their forum and actually figure out what their policy is and get back to us so we can work something concrete out (though I was rather polite, of course...).

I'll keep you guys updated if I hear anything back from ZargonX, but I'm not going to trust that he's going to do this alone, especially with what I'm sure is his rather aloof disposition.

Aidun, ANY help you can provide by working on Sharpe, Kloreep, or others from Legoland in the Tabemono team, DO IT.

Anyone else who has reason to run into others from Legoland, just casually chat with them about how we're likely to get wiped out and ND and GoW claim all of Bob to themselves... perhaps even march toward winning the game by force of arms, unless we get some help here to put them back in their cage... The fact that GoW IS SO CONFIDENT of victory that they are openly bragging about it should be seen as a sign that Legoland should think twice about remaining aloof. GoW violated an alliance to attack us, no-one should be foolish enough to believe they wouldn't do it again.

As for me... I talk to Nuclear Master in AIM on occassion, so I'll certainly try to get him back involved in Legoland and on our side. BigFree, he's on your team in the PTWDG2, if you can work on him, that would be great. I'll also send PMs to Nimitz and Spiffor... see if I can get them active in Legoland again, since I know both of them are back on Apolyton these days (Nimitz lurks about and Spiffor posts in the C3C speculation areas).

Any other casual chatting you guys can do with these guys and make the case that Glory of War and Neu Demogyptica are on the verge of claiming all of Bob for themselves and having craploads of UU's left over to invade another continent, do it.

Please report anything you are told or any progress here.

	15-10-2003 16:49									#10
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The PM I received from Sharpe:

quote: Hi Aidun, I have talked with the other moderates on Lego and they wanted to remain neutral at this time. Some mentioned that they want to see how the expected upcoming battle will turn out. I did try to persuade them that we should try to trade gunpowder to both you and GS; however, again they wanted to wait on that. In other words, don't count for much if any help - it is probably not coming from Lego. I don't agree with this situation, but I would clearly be outvoted on it. I guess this isn't good news - sorry about that - I hope that I didn't get your hopes up too much for help. Maybe the random number gods will be in your favour... However, they did indicate that once the war was over that things would possibly be reevaluated. Regards

Aidun

	16-10-2003 00:47									#11
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Alright, we pull out all the stops... people, contact people from Lego and work on them... they need to understand that we may lose ALL OF BOB if they don't help us. That's our story and we're sticking to it when talking with Lego.

	17-10-2003 19:45									#12
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Why should Lego care what happens on Bob, at this stage? Even if we were swept away, they know GS is rival enough for ND/GoW that they would have less to fear there than GS.

	17-10-2003 22:20									#13
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MrWIA,

Lego cares a lot more because GS has no source of saltpeter. That means that if ND and GoW get all of Bob, GS can't relyably stop them from invading Stormia and they certainly have more than enough force to invade Lego as well... Lego has many reasons to be worried about an ND/GoW victory over Bob.

	17-10-2003 23:09									#14
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Regent Arnelos, you are right that Lego should care about what happens in the Bob war, but I'm afraid that what they should do and what they will do is a different thing. The History shows that Lego has never played an important role in foreign affairs, other than making deals that ultimately gave them some benefit. It's a very good idea to warn them about what could happen because I bet that they haven't even checked the maps of the other two continents and seen that GS don't have saltpeter.

	19-10-2003 01:12									#15
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Errr...Oliver...actually, they have...

	19-10-2003 12:44									#16
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GS will risk everything to get a hold on Southern Bob; they have too. They, as well as we, need Saltpeter to survive. Has it been reported where and how many deposits of it are on Bob?

	19-10-2003 16:45									#17
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Oh well! We cannot see their saltpeter until we have the Gonpowder tech. That's why I didn't see any saltpeter in their continent. My apologies

	19-10-2003 19:03									#18
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That's OK, Oliver.

And don't wear out that hammer. We may need it.

	19-10-2003 19:05									#19
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I was just testing the hammer to see if it can be used against those infidels