11-10-2003 05:32									#1
	When to cancel Pact with PEACE Increase the size of your Attachments

Should we cancel it next turn, after we accept Doc Ini (2141)? Should we wait until we have Non Math too (2142)? Or should we wait as long as possible, until they cancel it.

The advantages of cancelling are that PEACE do not get to see our military build up. The disadvantages are that we won't be able to see their building once we've cancelled, and that cancelling it will show them our intention.

You have 2 days.

	11-10-2003 05:37									#2
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I'm undecided. I think if we cancel it now then it will be obvious of our intentions, and PEACE will be able to build up blind too. However if we continue to be Pactmates they will see we are researching Non Math and will see our build-up.

Basically, cancelling tells them nothing, but they have more time non-Pacted that seems hostile. Waiting for Non Math tells them about us getting Non Math, but not our build-up. Will they assume we are researching Non Math anyway? Waiting as long as possible risks allowing them to view our build-up, if they look at those screens. However it means we can see their defenses, and maybe keeps them believing we are friendly for longer?

Which will keep PEACE from knowing our intentions the longest?

	11-10-2003 05:41									#3
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I don't know. I'm undecided too.

	11-10-2003 05:46									#4
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Actually, I have some thoughts on this.

If we remain pacted, they learn that we are building up military, and that they must build up military to combat us. They gain no information about where we'll attack. Meanwhile, we gain information about where and what defences they're building, so we know where we can attack. We get more information remaining pacted than they do. While they only get general ideas (they're building units!), we get specific information (they have 1 synthmetal garrsion in Margaritaville, let's not attack there). It seems we gain more than they do by keeping the pact (plus we get a couple extra credits to help round off our poor wartime economy)).

	11-10-2003 05:52									#5
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However that has to be weighed up against the fact we will infiltrate them soon, which means we will get that information then. Moreover, they get commerce too.

However I think I agree with you. Although if we could stop the pact to a treaty for legitimate reasons, without them thinking of us going for war, we could completely surprise them. That would be the best IMHO, but impossible as far as I can see

	11-10-2003 05:54									#6
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Yes, that would be the best opportunity.

We could try claiming that they probed us, and cancel the pact then.

	11-10-2003 05:59									#7
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If they probe us and fail, would we be told? Or if they were compromised but managed it?

I think they'll see through that ruse. What reason could we have for reducing from a Pact to a treaty.

Remember that remaining at Pact also tells them we're building the MCC. Otherwise they won't know until we do Its such a hard decision

	11-10-2003 09:39									#8
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Infiltration doesn't need any notification to the other party.

If they tried to tech steal, and either succeeded or failed, they'd be obliged under the PBEM rules in play to declare vendetta on you (the bug being that they get the choice, not you, hence the compulsory vendetta rule)

G.

	11-10-2003 15:23									#9
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It's a hard decision indeed...

I'm slightly in favor of the 1st option. IMHO Better cancel it directly... then Peace won't know anything about
a) our building of the MCC until we actually get it
b) that we get NonLMath
c) our cruiser build-up

They will get very suspicious about breaking the pact, but IMHO it will give them less information then with a pact.
From the moment they would see we're building impact cruisers, they will go full military. If we keep them in the dark, maybe Peace will build a little less defense...

They best option would be, as you guys already said, to find a legitimite way to break the pact.
Maybe it could work if we said something not far from the truth. We state don't trust them anymore because they're trading heavily with other factions (having recently acquired AppPhy and IndBase) and because of their refusal to give us any commlinks...

	11-10-2003 17:20									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Phenix If we keep them in the dark, maybe Peace will build a little less defense...

That is the question.

quote: Originally posted by Phenix They best option would be, as you guys already said, to find a legitimite way to break the pact. Maybe it could work if we said something not far from the truth. We state don't trust them anymore because they're trading heavily with other factions (having recently acquired AppPhy and IndBase) and because of their refusal to give us any commlinks...

I like that idea. I like it a lot.

Maniac: As SF and therefore acting EAF, after we get the turn, could you PM Flubber and Hercules, saying something along the lines of:

quote: Hi Captain and Ambassador, Over the last few days there has been a lot of discussion among the CyCon about PEACE. Specifically regarding you stating that you did not want Applied Physics, when we offered them, both to settle our deal and for other trades, and yet you have traded for them with other factions. You have also continuously asked for more and more for techs, you language suggesting, and even JDM actually stating, that due to your early game advantage as 'traders', you must capitalise on this advantage by pushing for more and more, and playing factions of against each other. While we understand this, we do not feel that is a way to treat you Pact Brother. Therefore it is been decided by a CyCon majority that we should reduce our relations to a Treaty status. We will still honour our existing deals, and are still open to new deals, but we feel that in spirit we no longer act like Pact Brothers, and so feel a treaty is more appropriate. I am saddened to have to inform you of this, and I have tried to keep the Pact going for longer, but I was out-voted. We notice that you have pre-accepted Doctrine: Initiative in the diplomacy box. Could you explain to us why you have done that? Friendly greetings, Acting External Affairs Function (while DBTS is inactive) Mani Alpha-3

That might make them a little suspicious, but means they won't see our build up, the MCC being built until it is, nor Non Math being researched. It also seems friendly enough that they will (hopefully) not think we are doing this so we can go to war.

With regards to the acceptance of Doc Ini, before their reply, you could quite easily blame it on me. PM them after I post the turn stating that you are sorry that we did not wait, but that I was a strong supporter of reducing from Pact, and stated that I did not wish to wait for them, saying that "they have offered it so we can accept it". Apologise for me, and even go so far as to say that I am up in front of a Disciplinary Committee for my actions, and so have been suspended from being Prime Function. That way they think the acceptance was a rogue act, and that it does not show a feeling for war among the CyCon, which it may seem like.

What do you think? If Maniac could send that at about 10-12am GMT tomorrow, presuming we have the turn, and then I could post the turn at 1pm GMT. That way it seems like I'm being the rebel

	11-10-2003 18:27									#11
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You could also cite that you were nudging the 48 hour limit and had received a warning from me

This is a possible game delay warning

(Note that you can use the in-game diplo box to downgrade from Pact to treaty - it's unilateral (doesn't need their approval) - in fact, if you do this, then save the game as a 'midturn save', and re-open, you'll now be Treatied)

G.

	11-10-2003 18:46									#12
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we can say that we need the military build up to combat agressive movements from believers forces near our borders...maybe they buy it maybe they dont...we can atleast cunfuse the hell out of them...

	11-10-2003 18:53									#13
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Drogue asked me to put the PM a little bit more in my own words. Therefore:

quote: Official communiqué: pact severance Hi Captain and Ambassador, Over the last few days there has been a lot of discussion among the CyCon about PEACE. Specifically regarding you stating in the past that you did not want Applied Physics, when we offered it, both to settle our old IndAut deal and for other trades. The reason you stated was because you had no use for such a level 1 tech. Yet now you have traded for Applied Physics with another faction. In previous trades you have also continuously asked for more and more techs and credits, your language suggesting, and even JDM actually stating, that due to your early game advantage as 'traders', you must capitalize on this advantage by pushing for more and more, and playing factions off against each other. While we understand this, we do not feel that is a way to treat your Pact Brother. Therefore it has been decided by a majority in the Cybernetic Collective that we should reduce our relations to a Treaty status. We will still honour our existing deals, and are still open to new deals, but we cyborgs feel that in spirit PEACE and the Cybernetic Consciousness no longer act like Pact Brothers, and so feel a treaty is more appropriate. I am saddened to have to inform you of this, and I have tried to keep the Pact going for longer, but I was outvoted. We notice that you have pre-accepted Doctrine: Initiative in the diplomacy box. Could you explain to us why you have done that? Friendly greetings, Mani Alpha-3 Second Function and therefore acting External Affairs Function (while DBTS is inactive)

Comments?

	11-10-2003 18:58									#14
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well i think it is very evil....i like it...

	11-10-2003 19:03									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: we feel that in spirit we no longer act like Pact Brothers

To a casual reader that implies that the Cycon feel that the Cycon no longer act ....

Surely you mean the we as a collective (Cycon and PEACE) we. Thus:

we in the Cycon feel that in spirit the PEACE and Cybernetic Consciousness factions no longer act like Pact Brothers

quote: We notice that you have pre-accepted Doctrine: Initiative in the diplomacy box. Could you explain to us why you have done that?

Maybe add:

Have you in mind a further tech from us in exchange

G.

	11-10-2003 23:35									#16
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Maniac & Googlie: I think Googlie's first bit, that has been changed already, is better, but the second bit is not. We don't want to open the door to them about another tech. We simply want to ask them why they have done it, open endedly.

And Maniac: A big Looks great, and should do the trick

	13-10-2003 12:23									#17
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Wonderful