20-10-2003 21:24									#61
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Well, if the Israelites don't deserve to get in the game, I wonder why the Arabs ever made it. Sure, they had an empire, but their religion is just something they slapped together from Israelite teachings.

GF, your arguments make no sense. In fact, that Reagan quote was really rather silly.

As for one contribution civs, what about the Hittites or the Inca (to use the latest two spotlighted civs)? The Hittites hardly contributed to civilization at all. They were a military presence that was really big for a few centuries, and then collapsed utterly. They left behind very little at all to account for any brief greatness.

The Inca formed a very well run empire. However, once that was gone, what traces did they leave behind?

Nothing to compare with Israel.

	20-10-2003 21:55									#62
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quote: Originally posted by History Guy GF, your arguments make no sense. In fact, that Reagan quote was really rather silly.

Yes they are, to emphasize the silly arguments that Israel is a major civ. The Incas shaped a large area of South America for quite some time. Israel was a mere speed bump in the lineages of their neighbors.

	21-10-2003 00:21									#63
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb If Civilization was a religion only game then Israel would be at the top of the list, but it isn't. It is a game of Major Civilzations butting heads with one another. Israel does NOT qualify.

If head-butting gets you into the club, there's a few civs we can remove, and a few we can add. For example, the Celts can go. The "Babylonians" can go - after all, Babylon was just a city, a city owned by many different empires at many different times. The Koreans can basically go. The Iroquois? Gone. The Greeks can go and be replaced by the Athenians, the Spartans, etc... but I digress.

Even in a "Godless" concept of history, the Israelis played a major role. At LEAST as major as the Celts, Vikings, Iroquois or Zulu for that matter. Almost as major as Carthage.

	21-10-2003 00:26									#64
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This is turning into a very nasty little thread. I'm going to do my part and refrain from commenting further on the worthiness of any given civ... but I want to throw one last plea for sanity out there. That the Israelis invented the God that Jews, Christians, and Muslims ALL worship IS a big deal. A huge deal.

I encourage anyone looking for an excellently written, easy to ready and objective history of religion (that mentions Hittites as well as Jews) to pick up Karen Armstrong's "A History of God". Whether or not you agree that YHWH exists - I don't - it's pretty undeniable that if civilizations that contributed to global culture are to be included in this game, the Israelis must be, as their contribution far outweighed their numbers and lives with us today thousands of years later.

	21-10-2003 02:48									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth If head-butting gets you into the club, there's a few civs we can remove, and a few we can add. For example, the Celts can go. The "Babylonians" can go - after all, Babylon was just a city, a city owned by many different empires at many different times. The Koreans can basically go. The Iroquois? Gone. The Greeks can go and be replaced by the Athenians, the Spartans, etc... but I digress.

That's completely wrong, all of the above mentioned were civilizations in many ways, they impacted other civs in many ways. But the fact is they were all DOMINANT civilizations at some point.

quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth Even in a "Godless" concept of history, the Israelis played a major role. At LEAST as major as the Celts, Vikings, Iroquois or Zulu for that matter. Almost as major as Carthage.

They only played a major role in religion. No where near the level of the Celts, Vikings, Iroquois, or Carthage.

	21-10-2003 03:03									#66
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb That's completely wrong, all of the above mentioned were civilizations in many ways, they impacted other civs in many ways. But the fact is they were all DOMINANT civilizations at some point. They only played a major role in religion. No where near the level of the Celts, Vikings, Iroquois, or Carthage.

...the Celts, DOMINANT?

...nowhere near the level of the Iroquois?

You need to read some Roman history... look up Herod and Herod Agrippa... CERTAINLY as important as the Iroquois, all religious issues aside...

	21-10-2003 03:38									#67
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oh no... the 425th thread that changed topic to "israel should be in"

this is a topic that cannot come to a solution, because the question isn't even defined: what makes a worthy civilization?

GF uses conquest as a reason. in that case israel would be somewhere around position 852 (i'm not counting modern day conquest), so they don't deserve to be in

YS seen religion as a reason. in that case, the jews (and therefor israel) belong in. although (provocatively): only because edison invented the light bulb, doesn't mean america rules the artificial light.

other possible argumentations for a civ:

- land area (==> the hebrew never had a big country)
political influence
- scientific/cultural achievements (as eg. greece)
- great city-states (babylon, troy and very few other)
- great achievement in disadvantageous regions (inuit, etc.)
- long and permanent history
- commercial power
- regional distribution
and a lot more....


to decide if to have israel in or not, we have to first know, what qualifies a civilization to be worthy of a 1 out of 31 spot. before the question isn't know, my answer is fourty-two

	21-10-2003 04:20									#68
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Just for clarification I have a hard time buying America as qualifying to get into Civ..........

	21-10-2003 04:34									#69
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They are qualified because of two things:

An American created it.

They want to sell as many games as they can. Can you image the fuss if it was not in?

I mean I don't care who is in or out, it is a game and I only care about if it is fun.

	21-10-2003 06:51									#70
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Ghengis, in a couple of thousand years this will all be ancient history anyways, so the Americans may qualify just as well as the rest of the quaint old civs.

	21-10-2003 17:45									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Just a nitpick: the Portuguese arrived first, and they established trading posts years before you. But trade wasn't their main bbusiness in Japan, as the spread of Christianty was. Edit: but after the victory of the Tokugawas in 1611, the Christians were booted out of Japan. Only Dutch merchants were tolerated in Japan (I think they were the only foreigners tolerated at all in Japan before 1850).

hi ,

some americans where allowed , but only to stay with the ship in harbor , they where not even allowed to dock , the same for many other nations before 1750 , ......

have a nice day

	21-10-2003 18:29									#72
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Thanks for the correction, Panag. I didn't know that

And as per the other Civilization profiles: Am I the only one who thinks the Portuguese and the Inca will rule ?

- Thanks to their UU and their traits, the Portuguese will be the gods of seaborne exploration. Better yet, they'll have the functional equivalent of a frigate tens of turns before magnetism gets invented (and cheaper too!). On Continent maps or Archipelagos, the Portuguese will absolutely rule

- The incas can build their UU right from the beginning, and it is the fastest unit until the explorer arrives (2 moves, ignores move costs of mountains and hills). Better yet, the Incas have a uber-pillager right at the beginning of the game, as it can defend itself. But what strikes me as especially stong with the Incas is the agricultural expansionist combo: not only they'll discover the world very quickly, they'll also be able to settle on it more quickly than the others. This means the Incas will have very soon a functioning and populated empire, whose cities will be well located Talk about a heads up right from the beginning !

	21-10-2003 18:37									#73
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It will be very interesting indeed to see how the Chasqui and Jaguar interact...

	21-10-2003 18:45									#74
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let's say that the incas will have a lot more slave workers after some fights

	21-10-2003 19:07									#75
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf oh no... the 425th thread that changed topic to "israel should be in"

I am sorry for my contribution to this. Trust me. I really am. I should be punished. Still, whether or not Israel should be in, people who diminish its importance make me see red. I'm not Jewish; I'm not a big fan of Israel; nor do I think Israel should be driven into the sea. But I am a student of history - that's why I love Civ. And for people to overlook the historic signifigance of Israel drives me utterly batty.

quote: - scientific/cultural achievements (as eg. greece) - great city-states (babylon, troy and very few other) - great achievement in disadvantageous regions (inuit, etc.) - long and permanent history

Um, you can check all of these "yes" for Israel in its classic incarnation. Font of Judiasm/Christianity/Islam, great cities of strategic and historic note, significant achievement in, let's face it, a rather dry area, and though not PERMANENT, a very LONG history... Israel's been there in one form or another for thousands of years, and before y'all cry foul, bear in mind that Germany in civ represents the ancient Germans as well, even though Germany proper didn't exist until 1871...

THAT'S ALRIGHT though. Those of us wishing to include the Israelis can just mod the Hittites or Byzantines out. Maybe the Sumerians. Same general neck of the woods. Hey, if the Dutch have a Swiss UU, why can't the Israelis have a Hittite UU?

	21-10-2003 19:08									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Thanks for the correction, Panag. I didn't know that And as per the other Civilization profiles: Am I the only one who thinks the Portuguese and the Inca will rule ? - Thanks to their UU and their traits, the Portuguese will be the gods of seaborne exploration. Better yet, they'll have the functional equivalent of a frigate tens of turns before magnetism gets invented (and cheaper too!). On Continent maps or Archipelagos, the Portuguese will absolutely rule - The incas can build their UU right from the beginning, and it is the fastest unit until the explorer arrives (2 moves, ignores move costs of mountains and hills). Better yet, the Incas have a uber-pillager right at the beginning of the game, as it can defend itself. But what strikes me as especially stong with the Incas is the agricultural expansionist combo: not only they'll discover the world very quickly, they'll also be able to settle on it more quickly than the others. This means the Incas will have very soon a functioning and populated empire, whose cities will be well located Talk about a heads up right from the beginning !

hi ,

, the Inca do indeed seems to have a good start , but knowing Firaxis a bit , what shall they have done to balance the game , .....

it seems to easy , .....

maybe the Inca are programmed not to give the maps out so easy , ....

btw , the japanese attitude towards foreigners lead to the US sending some warships over , and a deal was struck opening the country for trade , ....

have a nice day

	21-10-2003 19:22									#77
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just everyone please bare in mind that having a very early UU usually means a very early GA.

which means
a) despotism: no more than 2 shields per tile
b) likely that the grassland around the cities aren't mined yet (no GA-shield-bonus for 'regular' grassland)
c) not many cities (1-4 maybe) to profit of this

panag: map trading has moved back to the middle/late medieval ages so the incas can't sell their early map anyway... same for the contacts (new: printing press)


and for the portuguese: they do seem extremely powerful under certain circumstances eg. big unsettled oversea territories, earlier contact to another (more advanced) continent. i'm just afraid the AI once again won't be able to handle these advantages (he won't prebuild dozens of settlers, he won't monopolize the contacts, etc)

	21-10-2003 19:36									#78
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf and for the portuguese: they do seem extremely powerful under certain circumstances eg. big unsettled oversea territories, earlier contact to another (more advanced) continent. i'm just afraid the AI once again won't be able to handle these advantages (he won't prebuild dozens of settlers, he won't monopolize the contacts, etc)

The real question is, will the game now generate situations where lots of seafaring civilizations start on a small continent, and actually HAVE lots of "empty" continents to settle?

I've never seen a random civ game that even approximates the discovery/settlement/conquest of the New World... I've always missed it, I might add...

	21-10-2003 19:42									#79
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the RMG (random map generator) hasn't ever given me such a situation either. that's why explorers aren't useful for anything except suicide pillaging

maybe if you choose continents, standard size and 2 civs you might get an empty continent

	21-10-2003 22:17									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor (...) And as per the other Civilization profiles: Am I the only one who thinks the Portuguese and the Inca will rule ? - Thanks to their UU and their traits, the Portuguese will be the gods of seaborne exploration. Better yet, they'll have the functional equivalent of a frigate tens of turns before magnetism gets invented (and cheaper too!). On Continent maps or Archipelagos, the Portuguese will absolutely rule

For me the Portuguese will rule, but my opinion dont count

They get what they were good at: exploring the seas(still are but no € ), to find resources they didnt had (and still dont have), in the new world.

	21-10-2003 23:44									#81
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I'm waiting until I've played a few round of Conquests before to see if these new traits and civ combos are overpowering or not.

	22-10-2003 00:08									#82
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quote: The real question is, will the game now generate situations where lots of seafaring civilizations start on a small continent, and actually HAVE lots of "empty" continents to settle? I've never seen a random civ game that even approximates the discovery/settlement/conquest of the New World... I've always missed it, I might add...

Agreed. Allowing the player to give basic instructions to the map generator at startup would be a really nice addition.

-Arrian

	22-10-2003 00:24									#83
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It's not even (ncessarily) a matter of "instructions," though that WOULD be nice, wouldn't it...

Civilizations throughout history tend to be either nomadic or centered around river valleys, and other rich agricultural areas. Simply designate the civs in the game as either/or, and have the RNG reflect this. The river-valley civs should start in clusters NEAR each other, with the wide open spaces inbetween occupied by 1 group of nomads. In other words, the French shouldn't start an equal distance from the Mongols, English and Germans: the French, English and Germans should all be nearby in a lush river valley (or several) and the Mongols should be far away, by themselves.

	22-10-2003 00:26									#84
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Of course, the problem with the system above is that the civ "in the middle of nowhere" gets ALL that time to expand... but the flip side is, they fall behind in tech. Thus loosely approximating what actually happened (especially if the "nomad" civs were told to build principally offensive land units)

	22-10-2003 00:33									#85
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf just everyone please bare in mind that having a very early UU usually means a very early GA. which means a) despotism: no more than 2 shields per tile b) likely that the grassland around the cities aren't mined yet (no GA-shield-bonus for 'regular' grassland) c) not many cities (1-4 maybe) to profit of this panag: map trading has moved back to the middle/late medieval ages so the incas can't sell their early map anyway... same for the contacts (new: printing press) and for the portuguese: they do seem extremely powerful under certain circumstances eg. big unsettled oversea territories, earlier contact to another (more advanced) continent. i'm just afraid the AI once again won't be able to handle these advantages (he won't prebuild dozens of settlers, he won't monopolize the contacts, etc)

hi ,

thanks , yep , that balances a lot

it would be surprising to see it the other way around , ......

have a nice day

	22-10-2003 00:41									#86
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and speaking of powerful civs. in my recent games i've often seen babylon and korea among the most powerful AI civs. both don't have a 'killer'-UU. and neither of them have real 'killer'-traits (at least not in the human players eyes).

but maybe it's just coincidence.

	22-10-2003 00:49									#87
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I have found Korea and Babylon to be among the most consistent well-performing civs. Babylon often gets destroyed, but if it doesn't, it's a powerhouse. Korea's territory is rarely mammoth, but it always is up to date on tech and has plenty of gold to toss around.

	22-10-2003 00:56									#88
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hi ,

it depends , if persia or rome get to iron really fast , .....

but even the lesser civ's in hands of a good human player can bonk some heads , ......

unfortunatly this is not always the case with the same civ's in the hands of the AI , .....

but then again , if one looks at the real world , some civs are doomed to become history , ..... aldo it would be nice if we would be able to code a line extra from time to time , something like " leave at least one city from each civ till the end " , .....

have a nice day

	22-10-2003 00:59									#89
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In most random games I play, Rome amounts to very little indeed. I hope they fix this somehow in C3C. Just getting rid of "Industrious" for Carthage would be fine.

I hope they don't screw with M/C for Rome though.

	22-10-2003 01:16									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth Just getting rid of "Industrious" for Carthage would be fine.

I doubt it.

First we know that:
-Dutch are Seafaring and Agricultural
-Portugease are Seafaring and Expansionist
-Byzantines are Seafaring and Scientific
-English are Seafaring and Commercial

-There is good chance that Vikings are Seafaring and Militaristic
-There is good chance that Spanish are Seafaring and Religious

-So it's good chance that last Seafaring combo with Industrious will get Carthage