12-10-2003 10:46									#1
	Separation of Church and State Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I was informed from a friend earlier this evening, that the Senate refused to even floor a proposal that the federal government can legally offer financial contributions to religious denominations.

President Bush, being the high-handed, arrogant SOB, decided to invoke executive authority, and enact this into law anyway, against the Sentate's wishes.


Seems like President Bush never heard of this concept in American law called "separation of the church and state."

What can President Bush get away with before mainstream, moderate voters realize that he is an extremist??

	12-10-2003 10:47									#2
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link?

	12-10-2003 10:51									#3
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I tried doing a search on cnn.com -- no luck.

My friend said he found this out today from the news -- I can try searching again.

	12-10-2003 10:54									#4
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Found it -- but this happened last month, so it's old news, I guess.

Violation of American Law

	12-10-2003 11:01									#5
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Click on the damn link, Shi.

	12-10-2003 11:28									#6
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Yup, interesting story.

	12-10-2003 21:19									#7
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So how did Bush, last month, get away with violating the separation of the church and state??


More, and more, he seems to be appearing somewhat of an extremist more so than the usual moderate Republicans.

	12-10-2003 21:30									#8
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Na, I think this is more of a moderate "wedge" issue. It's not really a direct assault on seperation of Church and State, it's not as though he is directly funding denominations as the thread titled suggested. So long as the money is going to stuff like helping religious organizations fund their soup kitchens, it shouldn't be a problem. I think Bush may be overestimating the effect this has on energizing his religious voting base.

	12-10-2003 21:35									#9
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You just wait and see what happens . . .

religious leaders will join other secular leaders at the mudpit and pig trough, squealing and salivating for money from the government.

And then other religious denominations will complain and maybe could even sue the federal government for discrimination if they perceive that the government is neglecting to give aid to other less dominant denominations.

I see all kinds of possible problems that can arise from this stupid law.

	12-10-2003 21:36									#10
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quote: I hear that Bush did something I didn't like! It must be a day of the week ending in 'y'!

	12-10-2003 21:36									#11
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I think that it's fine, so long is it's a charity. Why hurt people trying to help needy people?

	12-10-2003 21:45									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Na, I think this is more of a moderate "wedge" issue. It's not really a direct assault on seperation of Church and State, it's not as though he is directly funding denominations as the thread titled suggested. So long as the money is going to stuff like helping religious organizations fund their soup kitchens, it shouldn't be a problem. I think Bush may be overestimating the effect this has on energizing his religious voting base.

And just as long as the Patriot Act is only used against terrorists, it's fine.

Of course, it seems as though meth labs count as terrorist chemical weapon manufacture, money forgery counts as something terrorist, and being a journalist counts as being an ISP with terrorist-related records...

Oh, crap, did I just say that the Bush administration abuses its own laws? Oh, my. What an outrage. After all, Bush is a 100% competent president.

	12-10-2003 21:48									#13
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker I think that it's fine, so long is it's a charity. Why hurt people trying to help needy people?

Hurt? Religious people aren't prevented from working in a non-religious charity. If they just want to help people as an advertisement for their brand of the One True Way, they can do it on their own money. o_0

	12-10-2003 22:02									#14
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The only "Seperation of Church and State" that I find in my Conctitution says that the Government shall not set up a State sponsoed Church. You guys got a newer version?? I would love to see where it says that the goernment can't help the needy just because the service provider is owned by a Church.

	12-10-2003 22:16									#15
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Well, from the 1st Amendment:

quote: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

	12-10-2003 22:29									#16
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Yeah, mrmitchell, and like Plato said they haven't. There is no state sponsored church.

Anyway, I see nothing wrong with this. Letting church charities compete for federal grants? So? How this establishes a religion is beyond me .

	12-10-2003 22:34									#17
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Those damned founding fathers never considered arm chair interpertations did they.

	12-10-2003 22:39									#18
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Cant see the problem so long as they aren't evil recruiting soup kitchens.

If its found out that they're preaching or giving away free crucifixes with their soup then send the feds in to occupy their churches and turn them into mini malls to repay the money.

	12-10-2003 22:46									#19
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It's a federal sponsorship of a church. I don't see what is hard to grasp.

And with all the churches out there, you can bet an large amount will be recruiting with the money. But enforcing the no-recruiting just adds more load on the government as it is--now they've got to make sure churches are spending money right too. (And I thought you guys liked smaller government )

	12-10-2003 22:51									#20
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quote: It's a federal sponsorship of a church.

How is it federal sponsorship of a church when the money is going to be given to many churches based on the chartible works they do? The government isn't saying we like this church better than your church, it is saying that it needs more money for its charitble work.

	12-10-2003 22:52									#21
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Hurt? Religious people aren't prevented from working in a non-religious charity. If they just want to help people as an advertisement for their brand of the One True Way, they can do it on their own money. o_0

That strikes me as a bit oversimplified. Churches might have a number of reasons for forming their own charities that don't necessarily have to do with getting converts.

For one thing, they might like some control over the direction of the money, so that it doesn't go towards forms of aid they morally oppose, e.g. they might wish to sponsor crisis pregnancy centers in lieu of abortion clinics.

Or they might have specific goals not strictly compatible with other charities; International Orthodox Christian Charities prefers to help the poor and downtrodden in predominantly Orthodox countries in addition to possibly more needy people outside the fold. They do have a project in Mexico, and several in Africa, but a large chunk of it goes to salvaging Eastern European countries ruined by war or a few decades of communist mismanagement. It isn't favoritism so much as a recognition of the fact that families are responsible for protecting their own children first.

Or it may be a matter of simplified administration. Or something else entirely. There's no point in assuming a grim ulterior motive on the part of people you disagree with (yeah, the pot's probably speaking to the kettle here). Anyway, the Salvation Army is a religious charity; would you oppose federal aid for them?

	12-10-2003 23:01									#22
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quote: How is it federal sponsorship of a church when the money is going to be given to many churches based on the chartible works they do? The government isn't saying we like this church better than your church, it is saying that it needs more money for its charitble work.

You're giving more money to one group than another. How is that not favoritism? And while I'm on the subject, surely there's some crackpot (religious) group out there who supports NAMBLA and everything else you don't like. Would you want them getting money? No, but they're going to have to get it or else they can sue the government for discrimination.

quote: For one thing, they might like some control over the direction of the money, so that it doesn't go towards forms of aid they morally oppose, e.g. they might wish to sponsor crisis pregnancy centers in lieu of abortion clinics.

You see? Opposed to it for moral reasons. So if the government gives them money then they're opposed to it for moral reasons too, or they support an organisation that is opposed to it for moral reasons (same thing as far as gov. is concerned really). But the government isn't supposed to dip its hands in moral affairs. *sigh* Back to my example earlier, the Church of NAMBLA wants to hold a bake sale for axe murderers because they're morally opposed to holding a bake sale for [good cause]. The government is again trapped into the situation where they've got to give them money or they can be sued for religious discrimination...

	12-10-2003 23:03									#23
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One feature of the law will allow religious chairities to receive forfeited property with the only stipulation being that the property is to not be used for religious purposes for five years. This could be quite a feather in somebody's cap.

	12-10-2003 23:05									#24
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I'd like to see some proof that any religious organization supports NAMBLA.

	12-10-2003 23:11									#25
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Well, Dr Strangelove, I'm not sure about NAMBLA but there's of course ones that support things Elok + Imran + etc disagree with. But money still has to go to those ones correct?

I was using the Church of NAMBLA example because it might very well happen and the longer the law stays in place the more likely someone will cook the idea up and use it.

	12-10-2003 23:28									#26
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quote: You're giving more money to one group than another. How is that not favoritism? And while I'm on the subject, surely there's some crackpot (religious) group out there who supports NAMBLA and everything else you don't like. Would you want them getting money? No, but they're going to have to get it or else they can sue the government for discrimination.

I see you've started to go off the deep end. The government discriminates on many issues on which group to give money to. That doesn't mean they 'favor' one group over the other, they simply think one group needs the money more. The government isn't saying that this artist that gets money is backed by the US, but rather they made the best showing for it (and this applies especially to artists under the NEA... some of the people that get the money are definetly not favored by the government).

There is no religious discrimination whatsoever here.

	12-10-2003 23:32									#27
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But what if the Church of NAMBLA does exactly that and makes the best showing (for axe murderers)? And it still gives them an excuse to sue.

	12-10-2003 23:39									#28
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quote: But what if the Church of NAMBLA does exactly that and makes the best showing (for axe murderers)? And it still gives them an excuse to sue.

You can always sue, you can't always win. And they wouldn't win.

If the 'Church of NAMBLA' (they don't need to be a church to apply for charity work) makes the best showing for charity then they'd probably get some money. However, they don't. Furthermore, if you logic was correct, then the 'Church of NAMBLA' would have sued on the basis that they don't have tax-exempt church status.

The money would go to groups like the Red Cross, and inner city churches that help the poor.

	12-10-2003 23:50									#29
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What is Nambla?

	13-10-2003 00:09									#30
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Evil Knevil is about to find out something very unpleasant.