13-10-2003 08:55									#31
	Re: Do you think manifest destiny is just another way of saying unjustifiable aggression? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Vesayen <--American who mostly likes the U.S. One thing that always pissed me off about U.S. history... Now its all in the past so it dosent really matter, but its always pissed me off when people have tried to call U.S. aggresion something other then what it was, immoral aggression. Thoughts?

It's all immoral agression piled on top of more immoral agression.

Geopolitics is ultimately about extortion, theft and murder on a grand scale. Successful geopolitics means committing enough of the same so that you are in the position of defining what the "rules" are so you can bend them to justify your conduct and condemn your enemy's conduct.

	13-10-2003 09:00									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Certainly Manifest Destiny was immoral, looked from a 2003 moral frame. As for one civilization being better than another, as I said elsewhere, depends on your aims for humanity. How does one define success? The answer to that is the key to what you consider a superior society.

As for the Native Americans: they were not so inflexible: the entire horse culture of the Plains was newer than the European colonies on the new world. How quickly some subsistance farmers became nomadic hunters (and this also shows the "progression" from hunter to farmer is not real)

	13-10-2003 09:01									#33
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by JohnT To complain about "Manifest Destiny" is to whine about a specific example of something that happens to all things. Life... systems... organizations... all try to grow and they will attempt to do so at the expense of the other.

I agree with you that that's what all society did at one point in time. However, trying to justify such naked agression by appealing to something like destiny, esp at this point in time, smacks of hypocracy.

	13-10-2003 12:05									#34
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Vesayen So its okay to kill native americans and steal their land, and the land of mexico and other colonial powers because we need breathing room to expand?

The Native Americans said that they couldn't own land. So we just took what was lying around. It was those cheeky hypocrites in Manhattan who screwed us over on our jewelry.

	13-10-2003 12:42									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

*sigh*

Columbus day again.

He's really getting bashed heavily this time.

	13-10-2003 16:59									#36
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by JohnT It's not that we were evil or immoral

No, we're just the self styled rulers of the world - apparently the only animal possessing consciousness or intelligence - but we choose to kill each other by the millions.

And what's with the past tense? we're still doing it. And we'll keep on doing it. I doubt we'll ever change, because as much as we like to inlfate our egos we're still the same savages who lived in the caves.

	13-10-2003 17:14									#37
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Yo there is a version of the newer Last of the Mohicans, where the Last Mohican talks about the white man moving in and how everybody's world is about to change and he kinda says the same thing that JohnT just did I can't remember where you get it, but it's cut from the mainstream distrubution

Wow, thank you for posting that! I recently watched the DVD, and I played that ending about ten times. I thought it was so odd that I had forgotten an ending with such impact (especially the music, that film had a terrific score).

Now I know it wasn't my memory after all. It was cut!

	13-10-2003 17:36									#38
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dissident yes to the original title question The United States is an evil country. If the quality of living wasn't the best in the world, I'd move out

it's not. where will you move too?

	13-10-2003 18:04									#39
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I agree with you that that's what all society did at one point in time. However, trying to justify such naked agression by appealing to something like destiny, esp at this point in time, smacks of hypocracy.

And who does that? Manifest Destiny is a 19th century term that hasn't been even remotely vogue since 1890 and hasn't been taught in schools as being America's "destiny" since the 1950's... right about the time that England gave up her idea of Empire.

Am I missing something here? Did somebody use the phrase in a recent speech or something, ergo making the phrase "MD" newsworthy again? I've been traveling with the family and the only news I've read over the past few days have been from the headlines that I've seen at convenience store newspaper racks.

	13-10-2003 18:18									#40
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by GePap Certainly Manifest Destiny was immoral, looked from a 2003 moral frame.

There is a term for that in anthropology, but for the life of me I can't think of it. Regardless, it is considered to be a no-no.

	13-10-2003 19:00									#41
	Support Apolyton

well, remember, manifest destiny was carried out because at the time, we knew white man to be superior to all other barbaric races. part of it was that these red savages needed our civilizing influence, and far too many of them just refused to see a good thing when we were giving it to them, and so they fought. that's why we had to kill them.
the other part was because as white men, we needed to make this country great, and what better way to do that than to take all the land that we so rightfully deserved? we'd put it to good use. we'd make the land fertile, we'd put iron into the ground and connect the two halves of the us. we'd turn this nation into something great using good old white american know-how.

so one could argue that it had a bit to do with the white man's burden. something that was in vogue at the time.

or, you could argue that it was plain greed that drove it.

in the end, it doesn't matter. what are you going to do? roll back everything we did? are you going to donate and give your time and money to the millions of native peoples who are living below the poverty line?

**** happens. it's a pity the natives didn't have more sophisticated weapons to fight back, but progress will always crush someone else. life, unfortunately, is a zero-sum game.

	13-10-2003 19:04									#42
	Put an end to popups!

just to make clear: i don't believe in the racial politics described above.

i myself am a member of one of those said "barbaric" races. you know, those effete chinamen who are industrious but stupid.

	13-10-2003 21:28									#43
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

i dont understand what yall are talking about. popular conception of this period at least in today's world is of ******* whitey stealing land and raping every body.

in fact, if anything, we need to go a little bit back to that whole divine Manifest Destiny idea in public education just because it wasn't an evil plot by white Americans to slaughter the 'brown' peoples of the world. The American Indians did plenty of bad (they killed good numbers of relatively peaceful white family settlers) and most white people were not slaughtering Indians and some were even against the bad treatment of indians. While the over-all effect was extremely bad for the Natives (who are still living in poverty for the most part) quite a bit of good for the nation as a whole came out of western expansion. Slave-free states were formed for example and conflicts over which states would be free or not resulted in the civil war and the emancipation of slaves. Would this have happened if the US was content with the eastern seaboard and the even Free/Slave-holding state representation in the Senate? probably not. the point is that much (often ignored) good overall for the country did come out of Manifest Destiny.

This is true for imperialism around the world where European powers are portrayed as so evil and completely using native peoples while in fact the material lives of many native peoples improved significantly. While this may not justify imperialism's treatment of natives, it is stupid to say that imperialism was all bad for native populations. I would contend though that Manifest Destiny was unique in this regard as it provided no benefit for American Indians. I suppose the reservation system was a misguided attempt at bettering the lives of natives but it failed miserably.

today though, all we hear is of how evil white men stole from the indians. we need some balance.

	13-10-2003 22:32									#44
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by problem_child it's not. where will you move too?

I've been to other countries. And yes, the quality of life is the best in the world.

We have Papa Johns pizza and Krispy Kreme donuts

	13-10-2003 22:35									#45
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Manifest Destiny would have been great if the US was as good as it thought it was.

	13-10-2003 22:39									#46
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Osweld No, we're just the self styled rulers of the world - apparently the only animal possessing consciousness or intelligence - but we choose to kill each other by the millions. And what's with the past tense? we're still doing it. And we'll keep on doing it. I doubt we'll ever change, because as much as we like to inlfate our egos we're still the same savages who lived in the caves.

	13-10-2003 22:49									#47
	Suffering from ads?

Not all of the land the US got was taken by force. They Paid both France and Mexico for the land they got from them. Allthough in the Case of Mexico this was taken first by force then paid for latter.

	13-10-2003 22:52									#48
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Jack_www Not all of the land the US got was taken by force. They Paid both France and Mexico for the land they got from them.

Does that really make it any better? I mean yes they did pay for it when that was the cheapest option.

	13-10-2003 22:55									#49
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Does that really make it any better? I mean yes they did pay for it when that was the cheapest option.

I dont know. BUt Texas rebelled against Mexico and then after that joined the United States. Also in California the same thing happened.

	13-10-2003 22:59									#50
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Jack_www I dont know. BUt Texas rebelled against Mexico and then after that joined the United States. Also in California the same thing happened.

Your view is about as twisted as most textbooks. Anglos moved into those states and then rebelled. It's not like the Mexicans rebelled and joined the US.

	13-10-2003 23:01									#51
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Your view is about as twisted as most textbooks. Anglos moved into those states and then rebelled. It's not like the Mexicans rebelled and joined the US.

I know that most of the people involved were from the US. I am not that stupid, and yes this was in the text that we used in School here in the US.

	13-10-2003 23:03									#52
	Inflate your Upload Space

yes but kidicious... the Mexicans asked Americans to settle in Texas. They advertised it and gave them real cheap land. The only condition was that the Americans in Texas had to convert to Catholicism which sparked anger and led to the Texas rebellion

	13-10-2003 23:04									#53
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: today though, all we hear is of how evil white men stole from the indians. we need some balance.

well, as you say that it provided no benefit whatsoever to the natives, how was forcing them onto reservations after years of decimating extermination not evil?

and imperialism, by and large, was bad.
half the ethnic conflicts in africa could probably have been avoided had the euros not created such arbitrary and artificial borders, forcing different and mutually hostile ethnicities in one "country"? or the end result of british rule in india, which is a rather unstable region in south asia, created by way of millions of hindus and muslims dead, and continuing poverty in much of the region?

i'd like to know one instance where imperialism did good for the natives.

the natives over here certainly got a raw deal.

	13-10-2003 23:08									#54
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: today though, all we hear is of how evil white men stole from the indians. we need some balance. well, as you say that it provided no benefit whatsoever to the natives, how was forcing them onto reservations after years of decimating extermination not evil? and imperialism, by and large, was bad. half the ethnic conflicts in africa could probably have been avoided had the euros not created such arbitrary and artificial borders, forcing different and mutually hostile ethnicities in one "country"? or the end result of british rule in india, which is a rather unstable region in south asia, created by way of millions of hindus and muslims dead, and continuing poverty in much of the region? i'd like to know one instance where imperialism did good for the natives. the natives over here certainly got a raw deal.

This is true. Europe has cause its share of troubles arround the world because of imperialism.

	13-10-2003 23:13									#55
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Q Cubed:

medicine, european law institutions (which, at the risk of being 'ethnocentric', actually is often times much better than native law systems; a jury system for example is better than arbritary judges/chiefs), european taboos (helped curb female circumcision in parts of africa), infrastructure building, etc.

it's silly to say no good came out of it. the general effect was negative but that don't negate the few notable goods.

and in any event, your usage of words like "decimating extermination" to describe western expansion proves my point. This was not some fiendish, Hitlerian plot to destroy the 'red-skins'. Western expansion (which i thought was the neutral, official word for this period not Manifest Destiny) happened gradually a settler at a time until the US Army got involved following native attacks on settlers and the cavalry basically sped the native decline up.

the point is though this was not some fiendish, thought-out plan.

	13-10-2003 23:17									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Q Cubed: medicine, european law institutions (which, at the risk of being 'ethnocentric', actually is often times much better than native law systems; a jury system for example is better than arbritary judges/chiefs), european taboos (helped curb female circumcision in parts of africa), infrastructure building, etc. it's silly to say no good came out of it. the general effect was negative but that don't negate the few notable goods. and in any event, your usage of words like "decimating extermination" to describe western expansion proves my point. This was not some fiendish, Hitlerian plot to destroy the 'red-skins'. Western expansion (which i thought was the neutral, official word for this period not Manifest Destiny) happened gradually a settler at a time until the US Army got involved following native attacks on settlers and the cavalry basically sped the native decline up. the point is though this was not some fiendish, thought-out plan.

The little good that came from the European impearlism is out wayed by the harm that was caused. Just look at Africa today, it is a mess so is South America. While the United States is not, because they rebelled so early and have had 200 years to build the US into what it is today.

	13-10-2003 23:24									#57
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

oh, sure, there were some good things to come out of imperialism. but the ends do not justify the means.
hitler built the autobahn, which led to the construction of our interstate highway system. one could argue that was a benefit that hitler gave.

there has to be a cost analysis made, and i firmly believe that the cost was far too great for such paltry gains; thus, i come to the conclusion that imperialism was a failure, responsible for more trouble than good.

how do the words "decimating extermination" connote a fiendish, hitlerian plot? it's quite easy to exterminate things without any plan whatsoever. the lack of a coherent plan does not mean that wiping a group out wasn't an extermination.
what did manifest destiny do? it decimated the native population. it exterminated their way of life. was it a coherent plan to do so? no. but were those its results? yes.
thus, manifest destiny was a decimating extermination of the natives, and whatever benefits they may have gained, outside the token spiritually-attuned actor on the telly, are paltry compared to the costs they have borne.

	13-10-2003 23:24									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

umm... the South American revolutions occured in the first half the 19th century...

	13-10-2003 23:29									#59
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Q Cubed...

so back to the original topic of the thread... whats your point? Everybody knows that period was one of brutality. no one in America in 2003 believes in that white man's burden, divine manifest destiny, etc. bullshit.

so again, i'm left wondering what the point of this thread was.

	13-10-2003 23:31									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer umm... the South American revolutions occured in the first half the 19th century...

Yeah, but then the US started to get involved in South America and screwed things up even more.