13-10-2003 06:15									#1
	Do you think manifest destiny is just another way of saying unjustifiable aggression? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

<--American who mostly likes the U.S.

One thing that always pissed me off about U.S. history... Now its all in the past so it dosent really matter, but its always pissed me off when people have tried to call U.S. aggresion something other then what it was, immoral aggression.

Thoughts?

	13-10-2003 06:18									#2
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen but its always pissed me off when people have tried to call U.S. aggresion something other then what it was, immoral aggression.

Move to the UK then and you won't have to deal with it because that was how the colonies got off the ground.

	13-10-2003 06:22									#3
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If countries and societies aren't allowed to expand, then how are they to develop in the first place? To expand, to grow is to fulfill a biological imperative that is felt from the bacteria on up - is it not then surprising that our societies behave like they're biological creations?

To deny the ability to grow, evolve, adapt, and yes, to die, is to invite stagnation and eventual disaster. As the same goes for species, so it goes for societies and civilizations.

	13-10-2003 06:22									#4
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yes to the original title question

The United States is an evil country. If the quality of living wasn't the best in the world, I'd move out

	13-10-2003 06:23									#5
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT If countries and societies aren't allowed to expand, then how are they to develop in the first place? To expand, to grow is to fulfill a biological imperative that is felt from the bacteria on up - is it not then surprising that our societies behave like they're biological creations? To deny the ability to grow, evolve, adapt, and yes, to die, is to invite stagnation and eventual disaster. As the same goes for species, so it goes for societies and civilizations.

So its okay to kill native americans and steal their land, and the land of mexico and other colonial powers because we need breathing room to expand?

Who else said that? Oh yes, Hitler in Mien Kempf.

	13-10-2003 06:26									#6
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man this topic is soo freshman in college trying to reconcile his new world view with his old one

let's talk about lesbians or something

	13-10-2003 06:29									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker let's talk about lesbians or something

That would be more interesting.

	13-10-2003 06:30									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker man this topic is soo freshman in college trying to reconcile his new world view with his old one let's talk about lesbians or something

If the gay community is ever to grow, they need to kick out the evil straight people! Especially here in Utah.

-Tassadar
"Fabulous Destiny"

	13-10-2003 06:30									#9
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Was it OK for humanity to originally expand from Africa to Asia, Europe, N. America etc? Was it OK for Ivan the Great to create Russia by invading Siberia? Was it OK for the Native Americans themselves to destroy other Native Americans for their own material gain?

Is it right for a mold to fight another mold for dominance? Is it right for African crocodiles to hoard dwindling water supplies from the wilderbeast? Is it immoral for ants to fight each other for prime living space? Is it immoral for trees to grow, blocking the lights of more fragile plants that desperately need it?

Is it right to proselytize Islam in Utah? Is it right to ask people to join the Democratic party, even if they're Greens? Is it right to even try to change somebody's opinion?

To complain about "Manifest Destiny" is to whine about a specific example of something that happens to all things. Life... systems... organizations... all try to grow and they will attempt to do so at the expense of the other.

Such is the world we evolved from. Sorry it makes you feel uncomfortable.

	13-10-2003 06:31									#10
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Is it right to proselytize Islam in Utah?

Yeah, but we speak of it as it is: Doing gods will.

	13-10-2003 06:32									#11
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Yo there is a version of the newer Last of the Mohicans, where the Last Mohican talks about the white man moving in and how everybody's world is about to change and he kinda says the same thing that JohnT just did

I can't remember where you get it, but it's cut from the mainstream distrubution

	13-10-2003 06:33									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar "Fabulous Destiny"

	13-10-2003 06:39									#13
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Was it OK for humanity to originally expand from Africa to Asia, Europe, N. America etc? Was it OK for Ivan the Great to create Russia by invading Siberia? Was it OK for the Native Americans themselves to destroy other Native Americans for their own material gain? Is it right for a mold to fight another mold for dominance? Is it right for African crocodiles to hoard dwindling water supplies from the wilderbeast? Is it immoral for ants to fight each other for prime living space? Is it immoral for trees to grow, blocking the lights of more fragile plants that desperately need it? Is it right to proselytize Islam in Utah? Is it right to ask people to join the Democratic party, even if they're Greens? Is it right to even try to change somebody's opinion? To complain about "Manifest Destiny" is to whine about a specific example of something that happens to all things. Life... systems... organizations... all try to grow and they will attempt to do so at the expense of the other. Such is the world we evolved from. Sorry it makes you feel uncomfortable.

Okay, so were all animals and murder is fine-I'll be at your house in about 20 minutes to stab you in the face...... oh wait, no I wont because I'm not immoral.

The point is that just because people have been barbaric in the past dosent justify it for the future.

	13-10-2003 06:40									#14
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you're right.

and we no longer practice manifest destiny, so I fail to see the problem. Yes we were barbaric in the 19th and 20th century. But we're beyond that now.

you don't see us conquering other small nations now days do you?

	13-10-2003 06:41									#15
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I just dont like us lying about our past

	13-10-2003 06:45									#16
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Was it OK for humanity to originally expand from Africa to Asia, Europe, N. America etc? Was it OK for Ivan the Great to create Russia by invading Siberia? Was it OK for the Native Americans themselves to destroy other Native Americans for their own material gain? Is it right for a mold to fight another mold for dominance? Is it right for African crocodiles to hoard dwindling water supplies from the wilderbeast? Is it immoral for ants to fight each other for prime living space? Is it immoral for trees to grow, blocking the lights of more fragile plants that desperately need it? Is it right to proselytize Islam in Utah? Is it right to ask people to join the Democratic party, even if they're Greens? Is it right to even try to change somebody's opinion? To complain about "Manifest Destiny" is to whine about a specific example of something that happens to all things. Life... systems... organizations... all try to grow and they will attempt to do so at the expense of the other. Such is the world we evolved from. Sorry it makes you feel uncomfortable.

'Civilization' is all about seperating humanity from nature, it says that we've taken control of out 'destiny' and can make our goals what we want. We don't kill people because we're destined to, we kill them because we choose to.

Unless you're saying civilization is a farce.

	13-10-2003 06:48									#17
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It makes me mad that US history books use the term "annex" instead of "conquer." and make the texans look like heroes while the mexicans were trying to save thier own country from our imperialism.

	13-10-2003 06:53									#18
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i have this problem with the way stalin is portrayed too

	13-10-2003 06:57									#19
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Was it OK for humanity to originally expand from Africa to Asia, Europe, N. America etc?

Yes. No intraspecies agression.

[/i]Was it OK for Ivan the Great to create Russia by invading Siberia?[/i]

No, not okay. Also, he never got around to invading Siberia.

Was it OK for the Native Americans themselves to destroy other Native Americans for their own material gain?

No, not okay.

Is it right for a mold to fight another mold for dominance?

Same or different species?

Is it right for African crocodiles to hoard dwindling water supplies from the wilderbeast?

Yes.

Is it immoral for ants to fight each other for prime living space?

Yes.

Is it immoral for trees to grow, blocking the lights of more fragile plants that desperately need it?

No.

Is it right to proselytize Islam in Utah?

All missionary work is by definition immoral.

Is it right to ask people to join the Democratic party, even if they're Greens?

It's right.

Is it right to even try to change somebody's opinion?

Yep.

To complain about "Manifest Destiny" is to whine about a specific example of something that happens to all things. Life... systems... organizations... all try to grow and they will attempt to do so at the expense of the other.

They don't have to. We are memetically capable of not doing it. There's no reason to do it. Human expansion to Mars would benefit me extremely due to technological advances. Mexican conquest of Texas and genocide of all Texans would give me nothing.

	13-10-2003 06:58									#20
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Well obviously. America only annexes nations while the rest of the world conquers them.

	13-10-2003 07:18									#21
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The United States behaved like any other country in any given historical period.

I would not be living in Illinois for example, if we had not conquered the hundreds of different Amerindians entities/tribes.

At the same time, to whitewash this period of conquest as something else does injustice to the true violent period when Amerindians and white settlers committed atrocities on one another.

	13-10-2003 07:49									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen So its okay to kill native americans and steal their land, and the land of mexico and other colonial powers because we need breathing room to expand? Who else said that? Oh yes, Hitler in Mien Kempf.

yah we killed and took their land. we weren't very nice about it either. just like slavery its not the most moral spot in history. but if u look at it a little removed its almost an inevitabiliy of the cultural collision. our culture was the more pervasive and dominating.

like said in enter the dragon "how many things have died for want of strength."

	13-10-2003 07:49									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld 'Civilization' is all about seperating humanity from nature, it says that we've taken control of out 'destiny' and can make our goals what we want. We don't kill people because we're destined to, we kill them because we choose to. Unless you're saying civilization is a farce.

No, what I'm saying is that it should neither surprise nor sadden anybody that the structure of human civilization up to this point, including "manifest destiny," bears the very imprint of those behaviors that the previous billions of years of evolution and development has shown us to be successful.

Can we change our behavior now? Sure. Will we? Likely, over time, as technology makes such changes easier on the individual level. But as for the past... to use another analogy, human civilization might, just might be coming out of the toddler era and becoming young children, aware of the rules and doing our best to keep to them, but that cookie jar is just so tempting...

It's not that we were evil or immoral, we're just highly evolved animals who then were going through yet another massive radical evolutionary process, this time known as the Industrial Revolution. And the Indians weren't. So be it.

	13-10-2003 08:02									#24
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I don't think anyone is shocked by the behavior of "manifest destiny"... after all, we are animals, and behave as such on a constant basis. It's the term itself, it minimizes what actually happened. It's on par with "collateral damage."

	13-10-2003 08:02									#25
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun At the same time, to whitewash this period of conquest as something else does injustice to the true violent period when Amerindians and white settlers committed atrocities on one another.

True, and I do understand that this is Vesayen's point as well.

However, I do consider modern civilization to be far superior than anything the American Indians had to offer, so I don't waste my time bemoaning the past at the expense of improving the future.

That, too, is a value judgement.

	13-10-2003 08:05									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar If the gay community is ever to grow, they need to kick out the evil straight people! Especially here in Utah.

Just admite it. You are hoping someboy, any body, will give you an excuse to leave Utah.

	13-10-2003 08:07									#27
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I guess I am living on stolen land.

I don't care.

I love my state.

	13-10-2003 08:32									#28
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The point isn't that the land you are living on is stolen. The point is that you can stop the cycle of theft and counter-theft NOW!

	13-10-2003 08:40									#29
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo The point isn't that the land you are living on is stolen. The point is that you can stop the cycle of theft and counter-theft NOW!

Exactly.... the past dosent matter but we shouldnt lie about it either. Improve the future.

	13-10-2003 08:49									#30
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT True, and I do understand that this is Vesayen's point as well. However, I do consider modern civilization to be far superior than anything the American Indians had to offer, so I don't waste my time bemoaning the past at the expense of improving the future. That, too, is a value judgement.

Just because I have an interest in the history of Amerindian culture, does not mean that I bemoan the trajectory of continental conquest.

Just want to be clear on that -- I'm not an Amerindian worshipper, but I'm interested in their history.