14-10-2003 05:18									#1
	Chaunk's departure Remove this text

Chaunk allowed me to post our PM conversation on the forum, to make it more clear why he left.

quote: Hi Maniac, Due to my extreme displeasure at the recent dealings with PEACE, I have decided to leave the CyCon. This probably makes no difference at all to the actual running of the faction but then that's life! I wish I had been able to be more active and to have voiced my opinions more earlier, but alas, that was not the case. Chaunk, former Omicron-8

I then told my opinion on the PEACE matters and asked what he means exactly with our recent dealings with PEACE, and if I could post the reason of his departure to the rest of CyCon.

He then replied:

quote: Maniac, Thanks for your thought out reply. To clarify, I left not because of the war, but because of the double dealing. The way our pact was worded at the start, it would have been a simple thing for us to say "We're not happy with this deal, we're going to end the pact. Best wishes for the future." and then gone for war, when we were no longer pacted. The fact is, we were lying to them whilst pacted, making deals we had no intention of paying back, deliberatly making up stories in order to screw them over time and time again! I think accepting Doc:Ini knowing full well what Flubber had said and then making up this DBTS story was the final straw, as I felt it was beyond the pale. But anyway, whats done is done! I wish you and CyCon all the best in the future and apologise for being too inactive to voice my opinion on this earlier. If you wish to post this on the CyCon forum then please feel free to do so. C

I have now replied:

quote: Hi Chaunk, I just wanted to tell you people find it a pity you left. Drogue and Corellion have already commented on your departure. They say they thought everyone was in agreement. If you had voiced your opinion earlier, they would have acted differently. But alas, we of course can't all be as active. (So there's no need at all to apologize for that. ) Anyway, though I agree we have probably taken it too far with Doc:Ini and the DBTS story, in defence of our current actions I would like to note that we - or at least I - had no harmful intentions at all towards PEACE until that turn that they forgot - deliberately or not, who knows? - to offer DocFlex in the diplomacy box. IIRC before that we were completely truthful towards PEACE and intended to live by our agreements. The same cannot be said about PEACE! From day one of the pact, they tried to exploit us, lied to us and made up stories. Just to give a few examples: they lied about how they got IndBase, they tried to hide from us they had met other factions, they implicitedly and explicitedly insulted us in all their PMs, claiming we were bad pactmates and they perfect ones, claiming they had the best intentions with us while they tried to get the bottom out of a deal. And let's not forget johndmuller accusing Drogue of hacking his computer. It sounds as a very lame excuse but: "They started it." Anyway, just wanted to say that... I wish you all the best as well, and perhaps we may encounter eachother in a future PBEM, hopefully in more cooperative circumstances than between PEACE and CyCon. Greetings, Maniac

	14-10-2003 05:26									#2
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I don't agree with, but I can understand his qualms. In any case, I've sent him a PM wishing him well in the future, and stating my sadness that he's left.

One fewer CyCon member *sigh.

	14-10-2003 05:33									#3
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I agree with Corellion. I will PM him to say thanks for his efforts. I can see where he's coming from. To me, the bottom line is that this is a game, and I want to play it for fun as my character. This is saddening though, as Chaunk was a good player, and an active CyCon.

	14-10-2003 20:56									#4
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Damn; i'm never online when these important things seem to happen

This is a very unfortunate complication to the whole CyCon/Peace relationship. I can understand why Chaunk left, too bad though he didn't get to posting his concerns...

I only hope this won't further injure our honour regarding to the other factions...
Peace could make a whole affair out of this For example they could say our members are now even defecting because of internal difficulties and excessive lying to other factions (well, maybe a bit but they certainly started it )

	14-10-2003 21:06									#5
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They can say what they want. I will PM other faction leaders ot show. All we did was accept a pre-accepted tech. It is not against the rules. The lying both factions have done, so that is that.

I really don't see it as that big a deal.

	14-10-2003 21:07									#6
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I'm far more worried about this. Googlie has left

	14-10-2003 21:12									#7
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This is not good, not good at all... any idea by who and why those accusations on Googlie's intergrity would be stated??

	14-10-2003 21:15									#8
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PEACE did because of his ruling that we did not break the rules. However Flubber said it was surprise, and has now toned it down. Too late I feel

I have PMed Googlie to apologise for the part I played in his departure and to thank him for his work on the DG. This is a sad day, that I hope does not mean the end of the DG.

	14-10-2003 21:22									#9
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I have received a reply from Googlie:

quote: Thanks Drogue. I don't mind decisions being questioned, or argued with - after all, it is a democracygame. But I have scrupulously tried to be neutral in all of this, and to have allegations of bias as well as personal attacks .... well, I'm too long in the tooth to let them seriously bother me, but I think that CMN/PEACE relations are so sour that I can't continue in the CMN role. Good luck in the game Googlie

I have to say, I understand exactly why he has left,and I sympathise. I was very close to leaving after the personal attacks by JDM.

What to do now? Who can we ask to be our CMN? Could we ask Tassadar? Or should we look outside?

	14-10-2003 22:30									#10
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well we need googlie in the game...or tassadar...but no offence to tassadar but wanst, isnt he hive?

	15-10-2003 00:01									#11
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I would be fine with Tass being CMN, since the map is already made. However I think other factions won't. The only person I know who could take over is Darsnan, and he might be busy with the ACPSG

	15-10-2003 00:22									#12
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Tassadar would be fine... yes he used to be Hive, and he often still plays the part, but I trust him to be impartial.

Why'd Googlie have to leave?

	15-10-2003 03:01									#13
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quote: WE have pretty reliable intelligence that your mistakes were not mistakes at all but planned and deliberate. Haven't you even had a member of your faction resign over this ??

I hardly dare think it, but is it possible Chaunk mentioned something to PEACE about our plans, being disillusioned with our tactics and all?? Or are our internal forum affairs so obvious to everyone?

	15-10-2003 03:13									#14
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I think someone's mentioned something. Either a side remark by Googlie that they read too much into, or they've spoken to Chaunk I'd hate to think that, but if they have, that would be awful.

	15-10-2003 03:15									#15
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BTW: Chaunk has now been removed from our list of registration.

	15-10-2003 03:20									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue or they've spoken to Chaunk

As he may have broken an (implied?) 'defection rule', Chaunk should tell you what he's told PEACE (I could relay it, but would only do so as a last resort, to clear any further suspicion against me)

G.

	15-10-2003 03:32									#17
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So Chaunk has defected That is sad. I can understand him leaving, but that goes to far. Is there a rule against it? I would rather not confront him, since he has chosen, and it would just seem spiteful. However doesn't this spoil the whole point of being in a faction. Not only did he not speak up, he then decides to relay information to PEACE

"If you don't vote, don't complain about who's elected."

If he has told them about the latest deals, I can kind of understand, since he was unhappy with them. However if he has told about the impending war, or anything else that doesn't involve the latest deal, I will not be happy. This is a big part of our game plan - surprise, and for him to do that is awful IMHO. He should have spoken up, but deciding not to, leaving, and then speaking up to them about it is too much IMHO.

	15-10-2003 03:42									#18
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I thought we did put a no-defection rule into place after the whole Tassadar scandal?

And has Chaunk really relayed information to PEACE? I don't want to think so...

	15-10-2003 04:11									#19
	Remove this text

Has anybody PMed Chaunk and asked yet?

	15-10-2003 04:22									#20
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Nope. Not yet. Should I?

And there is a no-defection rule, in the sense that you cannot leave one faction and join another. However you can leave one faction and inform the other, without joining them, going on the letter of the law IIRC.

	15-10-2003 04:36									#21
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Let me clarify:

Chaunk has not defected to PEACE - he simply passed on information to them while being (resigning from) Cycon.

But no strategic plans were divulged. I wish I could reproduce his message to Flubber (which Flubber posted with Chaunk's permission in the PEACE forum) to allay your fears on that regard.

Suffice it to say that as his reasion for leaving he cited his dissatisfaction with the CyCon tactic of (excerpts taken from his PM to Flubber, and paraphrased)

several deals were made ....... ..... and the discussion reflected the fact that we had no intention of following up on the deal ...... the final straw was the acceptance of Doc:Ini.

But it is from that source that Flubber is posting "BULL" to your D and M's explanations of the situation.

G.

	15-10-2003 04:37									#22
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I can't believe Chaunk would have done that... but you'd better ask anyway. I hate it when things like this happen.

	15-10-2003 04:45									#23
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Oh well, it seems legit. It is easily refuted, since how is Chaunk to know the intentions of the other members? When we struck those deals, I did have the intention of repaying them. I just lost that when I realised we had more to be gained by war. Flubber can post Bull he wants, when he brings in Chaunks message, if allowed (which I doubt) we can easily say that wasn't our intention. Chaunk was not the most active member of our forum, nor the DG, and may have missed much. Of course there will be people in our faction screaming for PEACE blood. They will have too. However that does not make it the factions opinion.

	15-10-2003 08:32									#24
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Aa! I just noticed that Googlie posted before me, confirming.

This is quite saddening, even though it's legitimate. If he doesn't agree, fine, but he should not inform PEACE of our plans in leaving... especially because he never voiced any objection to it (whether because of inactivity or not). At least he didn't reveal our plans... we can recover.

	15-10-2003 16:46									#25
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An interesting development, this is indeed an interesting time to be a Cycon.

So it seems we may be involved in a lbit of Machiavelian sceaming which we discuise with with a claim of ignorance of PBEM's unspoken rules. I my self have never played PBEM so I can easily tow the faction line when it comes to acting inocent.

If you look at it from a roleplaying sense we are emotionless cyborgs so machiavelian sceaming should be a favorite tactic of ours. We will cold and methodicaly turn on our alies when ever we calculate it is whith in our best interest. Trust, Honor and Duty are fical human emotions that we have moved beyond, their is only logic and self advancment.

This defection is unfortunate but in the grander scheem of things it adds to the "META-GAME" whitch is the whole point after all.

	15-10-2003 17:15									#26
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Exactly Impaler

Anyway, sorry I forgot to do the PM explaining our situation. It will be written and sent tonight (in about 6 hours). Sorry for the delay, was way to much going on yesterday

	15-10-2003 17:28									#27
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Thanks, I have opened up te turn 2141 and referencing it to all your discussions so that I can tell how things have developed over the last few turns. I still need to get a better sense of our relationships with other factions and on our long turm planing (adsactly how long term do you plan?) If its more conveniet you could make a post of the forum as everyone could read this and make coments.

	15-10-2003 20:04									#28
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Do we really have a long-term plan...cool

	15-10-2003 20:19									#29
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LOL, Phenix

	15-10-2003 21:15									#30
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we want to be absloute rulers of chiron dont we?