14-10-2003 19:58									#1
	OFFICIAL: University Treaty Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The question at hand remains do we enter into a treaty with the University knowingly given the fact that we will partake in action to either outright break that treaty (i.e. war) or give just cause for its cessation (i.e. probe action)?

	14-10-2003 22:00									#2
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No

Crush them and eat their children

-Jam

	14-10-2003 22:29									#3
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The Human Hive stands ready to advance our foreign policy goals in an active manner.

.....

Crush them, eat their children, and plunder their riches!!!



....

No lets not sign a treaty right yet. Or, even better, what my suggestion would be is to follow the North Korean example and tie them down in negotiations about it until we actually invade.



I love my job

- Rokossovky

	14-10-2003 22:58									#4
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I voted yes. Sounds to me every plan so far says treaty isn't it? Jamski's plan is kill the scount and then offer treaty. Marshal's plan is treaty until we surprise attack. So yes to a treaty no matter what the final plan is. Tie them down in negotiations sounds good to me too although how long can you negotiate with somebody with a peace treaty? Tech exchange is another story.

	14-10-2003 23:10									#5
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Tie in a tech exchange into the treaty. Some map things.... Kody can do it. He's a smart guy.

- Rokossovky

	15-10-2003 00:53									#6
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Let's sign it now, then have relationships "break down" between our two nations. Then we eat the children.

We'll rape the EC Banks and Pillage the women!!!

	15-10-2003 02:00									#7
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Why have I never realized what evil accompanies I have chosen for myself?

	15-10-2003 02:28									#8
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I like your idea Vander.... are you still looking for a job?

- Rokossovky

(there is a certain lieutenant-general position still available)

	15-10-2003 03:27									#9
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Yes, I'd prefer a treaty now, so we can *properly* train out troops in the fine arts of pillaging, raping, etc.

	15-10-2003 04:30									#10
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Treaty is fine. I thought we are going to bomb them to stone age?

	15-10-2003 05:39									#11
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No we need to keep a good opinon with the rest of the factions we shouldn't make a treaty with them until we have their data links tapped (or do the rules state we can do that without letting them know forget?) Either way we shouldn't do anything other than truce they are to close to us to do much else and to much of a threat.

	15-10-2003 06:43									#12
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quote: thought we are going to bomb them to stone age?

Oh we are, the question is just what do we do in the mean time. It is going to be a number of turns before we can launch an attack.

As someone (forget who) said, we should just allow our relations to "break down"... ie demand Archaic give us his left nut or else, that way we are not "backstabbing"... just having a disagreement that ends with the anhiliation of one faction.

As for the being too close to us dacole...
We are on the top of the power graph right now, and a MUCH larger threat to them then they are to us. We need to expand, and our pact brothers the drones are in much the same mood. We are entering a phase in the game where air power could bring us an unimaginable advantage on the battlefield. The time for this expansion is at hand. They are weak, underindustrialized, underpopulated, and virtually unarmed; whereas we can unleash our claws and tear at their throat with only a few turns notice. It is advisable not to allow them to see this though, as you are correct in noting they are close; a general war with them where we are not immediately and forever on the advance would not be good. You are wise to fear them, however, you should not let that fear paralyze you, grasshopper.

- Rokossovky

	15-10-2003 15:27									#13
	Remove this text

I'll change my "no" to a "yes" on the condition that it is just a ghost treaty untill we declare war on them. I'd also like to point out that we have the millitary advantage because :

We will be fighting on their soil

-Jam

	15-10-2003 21:07									#14
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Jamski I'll change my "no" to a "yes" on the condition that it is just a ghost treaty untill we declare war on them. I'd also like to point out that we have the millitary advantage because : We will be fighting on their soil -Jam

Of course I would have it no other way. Besides the treaty offer has already been sent.

	15-10-2003 21:17									#15
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quote: Originally posted by dacole or do the rules state we can do that without letting them know

Correct. Infiltration has no consequences.

tech-steal, energy steal, asassination, etc etc requires the prober to select the "declare vendetta" option they will then be given (due to a Firaxis programming bug the option is given to the prober rather than to the aggrieved probee)

G.

	16-10-2003 00:49									#16
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Its not a programming bug.

The probe action takes place in the prober's turn, not the probee's, so only the prober has the choice.

Well, maybe its an oversight

-Jam

	16-10-2003 01:36									#17
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Yeah - I never really understood that one.

If your probe action was successful, then I don't think any notice should be given to the aggrieved party (either in PBEMs or single player games). You got in, stole, and got out

If you were unsuccesful, then you got caught, and the aggrieved party then has the option of a response, all the way from "oh, it's you - that's OK then" to "This means WAR"

If you frame someone else then it means your probe team left some evidence pointing towards a third party, thus giving the probee the same choice of options but this time directed against the third party

But in single player games (or PBEMs when probing the AI and framing another AI) you get both the probee and the framee declaring vendetta - how the heck did the framee know it was you if your action was successful?

I'm not a programmer, but it seems to me that it's not that hard a task to do it right.

And even in PBEM,s if the singleplayer format were followed, the probee would just get a message next turn saying "so and so has just stolen tech/ec's/your daughters (or whatever) - what do you want to do"

But I think that Chris Pine or someone acknowledged that this was a bug (or a misporgrammed item, I think he called it) and IIRC it was he who suggested the now-used PBEM rule in one of the early OWO forums

G.

	16-10-2003 01:53									#18
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Its things like that which make me wish I was competent enough to code a new patch for SMAC...

-Jam

	17-10-2003 14:46									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Or that Firaxis was completly dedicated to all their products.

Oh how far the giants have fallen

	17-10-2003 21:44									#20
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SMAC/X 2? That'd be fun. Not a new story, more just a new GUI, maybe units and systems.