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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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list of games and favorites by game genre always makes me think the assumption is that my hobby is something called "gaming" . Now if somebody tells me their hobby is "reading" I tend to think they're either 12 year olds or they're not very intellectual. We intellectual snobs say our hobby is history, or science, or whatever.
Now games hasnt reached that point, a sign I think of the immaturity of the medium. The technology and the issues it generates still dominate. But at least for me, that is not the reason i play games. I think we should start to think differently - our real interests are NOT 1. Spreadsheet management (TBS) 2. Fast clicking (action games) 3. Fast clicking with some spread sheet management (RTS) 4. Puzzle solving (Adventure) 5. Managing character stats (RPG's) etc.
Rather our interests are History, fantasy, science fiction, etc.
Thus for me playing a history game is an extension of my interest in history - just as reading a history book, or seeing a historically themed movie, or visiting a historic site is. So when i play a history game its the history that matters, not whether it RT, TB, or whatever. Similarly a good sci-fi game should hold my interest as sci-fi, just as a novel or movie would, regardless of its genre.
In the interest of furthering that i invite all to list their favorite games by setting. I will not be tabulating anything, so feel free to list as many as you want. In the interests of clarifying my meaning, I will list most of the games I own.
Categories - History - (including wargames, empire builders, city builders, etc)
Science fiction
Fantasy
Post-apocalypse (this should be seperate setting from sci-fi, no?)
Contemporary life (could include a strategy game, though im thinking more of games like the sims, or tycoon games. I'll use 1989, the fall of the Berlin wall, to set apart from history games.)
Abstract ( no particular setting, like free cell, or, arguably, chess)
Nature (sim ant. the never made dinosaur game?)
My games
History
1. Civ2
2. Imperialism2
3. Age of Empires
4. Caesar 3
5. Sid Meiers Gettysburgh/Antietam
6. RE Lee: Civil War General
7. 1602 AD
(note in addition to strat games and citybuilders, this could include WW2 era flight sims, historical setting adventures, etc)
Sci Fi
1. SMAC
(this will include many strat games, but also RPG's, shooters, etc)
Fantasy
1. Myst
2. Zork
3. Collosal Cave
(though lots of adventure games here, obviously also lots of RPG's, action games, and strat games)
Contemporary life
1. SimCity 2000
2. Simtown
3. Simtower
3. simcopter
(Mainly "tycoon" games and flight sims, but really should be wider if gaming is too be genuine interactive fiction. Also hoping for the great contemporary power politics game)
Nature
1. Simisle
2. Simsafari
(Seems to belong to will wright)
Post-Apocalypse
( i dont have any - seems to be popular in RPGS and RTS)
Abstract
(Only ones i own are the ones that came with windows, but there seems to be some market)
Last edited by lord of the mark on 14-10-2003 at 22:52
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:31
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History:
Civ2, CTP2, Ceasar 2.
Science Fiction:
SMAC, Privateer 2: the Darkening, Crusader: No Regret, Quake 3, MoO, Fragile Allegiance ( a lost gem!), Half Life, C&C, esp. the first one.
Fantasy:
Diablo 1, HoMM 3, Warcraft.
Post-Apocalypse:
Fallout 1,2.
Contemporary:
The SimCity series, Transport Tycoon Deluxe, Counterstrike.
Abstract:
Global Conquest ( the follow-up to command HQ ). A game which isn't set in any particular time, but the battles are modern ( with some weird twists, though. )
Nature:
Simant.
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MariOne
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Erewhon in Neverland
May 1999
time: 06:31
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
...our real interests are NOT 1. Spreadsheet management (TBS) ...
... So when i play a history game its the history that matters, not whether it RT, TB, or whatever. Similarly a good sci-fi game should hold my interest as sci-fi, just as a novel or movie would, regardless of its genre.
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Well, erm... 
I'm not very intellectual.
My interest is in TBS as a form of game, and the (micro)management part is what attracts me....
I would play a history TBS, but (almost) never a History RT(S?)...
I would play a sci-fi TBS, but (almost) never a sci-fi RT(S?)...
I would play any good TBS, regardless of its setting...
____
Besides, if the reason you play Civ2 is not it's a good TBS but because it *fulfills* the needs of your interest in History, well, your level in the latter could be a bit shallow...
If you're interested in History, you read books and go to musueums.
Movies are entertainement, and games provide you with history nurture just like visiting a makeshift movie-set city can substitute visiting an art-city...
imho
Last edited by MariOne on 15-10-2003 at 16:26
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Jon Miller
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a lot of rpgs are really like an interactive story
so I agree there
I also have freinds who only play sci-fi rts and tbs (or only fantasy ones)
they just prefer the setting better
actually, while I think that SMAC is the cooler game, I like Civ2 better because the setting grabs me more
Jon Miller
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MariOne
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Erewhon in Neverland
May 1999
time: 06:31
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
Films are more than "entertainment" They can be serious works of art, that can be as deep and complex as books. Think Kurosawa, Fassbinder, Bergman, etc.
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I wholeheartedly agree.
I was trying to not be too longwinded.
What I meant was:
Movies are art, but their art is CINEMA, their worth is their cinema worth.
Historical movies are *usually* big meatloafs, poor as movies, and historically useful only for the uneducated masses.
Historywise they are "divulgative" at best.
Think of Barry Lyndon. A cinema masterpiece. But if you're versed in history, it's nothing more than a curiosity in that sense. If you barely know something about history, in that sense it can be nothing more than a luring introduction, not a reference source.
Just like reading Asimov because you're interested in "science". He wrote some great "science divulgation", for those who dind't know about it and wanted to get a glimpse at its surface. But if you're *interested* in science, you study it. If you like Asimov, like him because he's a good sci-fi writer and you like his style, not because you're "interested in science".
Same goes with "historical movies", "historical games", and "interest in history"
imho
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by MariOne
I wholeheartedly agree.
I was trying to not be too longwinded.
What I meant was:
Movies are art, but their art is CINEMA, their worth is their cinema worth.
Historical movies are *usually* big meatloafs, poor as movies, and historically useful only for the uneducated masses.
Historywise they are "divulgative" at best.
Think of Barry Lyndon. A cinema masterpiece. But if you're versed in history, it's nothing more than a curiosity in that sense. ".
Same goes with "historical movies", "historical games", and "interest in history"
imho |
Barry Lyndon is a double adaptation - its Kubricks film version of Thackerays novel - so even if the film (which I enjoyed) was faithful to the novel (which I never read) it would still be limited by the degree of Thackeray's historical accuracy. (though was it really that bad as history - you had semi-mercenary brit troops, the brit-prussian alliance in the seven years war, the very rough Prussian army, attempts to purchase Brit titles of nobility, etc - all accurate and things quite a lot of educated americans wouldnt be particularly aware of)
In any case I did not mean to indicate that games should serve as references - the same would apply to films ( as you indicate) historical fiction, and quite a good portion of non-fiction history. Im a history buff, not a professional historian. Not every expression of my historical interest has to serve as a reference.
and can i give 3 examples of films by a director definitely less artistic than Kubrick, but which were still very good AS films, and also better as history than Barry Lyndon - im thinking of 3 films by Spielberg - "Saving Private Ryan", "Schindler's List", and "Amistad"
Now I wouldnt suggest any of the three as substitutes for a reference work - and I wouldnt claim any of the three in the league of Bergman, Fellini or Kubrick. But they were all powerful moving films, and they all had something to learn even for someone well versed in history, if that person wasnt familiar with the period in question. In fact in the case of "Amistad" I would suggest that even lots of people quite familiar with the period had a lot they could learn.
Last edited by lord of the mark on 16-10-2003 at 18:54
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by MariOne
Just like reading Asimov because you're interested in "science". He wrote some great "science divulgation", for those who dind't know about it and wanted to get a glimpse at its surface. But if you're *interested* in science, you study it. If you like Asimov, like him because he's a good sci-fi writer and you like his style, not because you're "interested in science".
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But as you say, you read asmivov because youre interested in SCIENCE FICTION, not because youre interested in novels per se.
The case of history is somewhat different from science which (apart from natural history) is not essentially a narrative. So if youre interested in science in a narrative sense you must read science fiction, which is a large genre on its own. History DOES present as a narrative. So if youre interested in history, you can read history that not academic, for its narrative interest. Historical fiction therefore, is a more limited interest.
Last edited by lord of the mark on 16-10-2003 at 19:04
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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How about science documentaries? Fairly popular on public television over here. Can you learn from them. Arguably you can learn things from them that you could NEVER learn from a book - so short of actually entering a lab, or a wild place, its the best you can do.
I would suggest the same for say a war game (of the relatively historically accurate variety) You can learn things from it that would be very difficult to explain in a book. Short of actually fighting a battle, its the closest you can get to understanding a commanders real problems. Which is why actual militaries use wargames. And at least some commercial wargame designers (like Jim Dunnigan) also worked with the military.
Now I suspect the folks who play say, The Ardennes Offensive, are more interested in World War II then they are in the art of the TBS game. While, OTOH, the folks who play Civ, or MOO2, MAY be more interested in the art of the TBS than in history or science fiction. So it seems to me that discussions that focus on game "genre" tend to bias us towards certain types of games, and towards certain aspects of those games. Which is why i wanted a thread with a different focus.
Last edited by lord of the mark on 16-10-2003 at 19:03
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Static Universe
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History:
Transportation Tycoon
Civ II
Science fiction:
SMAC/X
Starcraft
X-Com
Elite
Fantasy:
HOMM II/III
Master of Magic
Myst
Riven
Warcraft
Post-apocalypse:
???
Contemporary life:
Capitalism
Sim City 2000
Abstract:
Alchemy (on MSN games/shockwave games/wherever)
Princess Maker II
Super Mario Bros II/III
Nature:
???
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Zero
history - battlefield 1942 erm... return to castle wolfenstein?  and ww2 combat simulator games from microsoft
scifi - UT 2k3, Q3A, starcraft, Wing commander prophecy
fantasy - soul calibur II, warcraft Marvel VS capcom 2, guilty gear XX
contemporary life- counterstrike? c&c generals?  madden 2k4
nature -
post apoc -
abstract - games like eternal darkness and alice could fit in here i guess.
99% of the game I like could fit under one category called battle/war. Or 99.99% if u called in violent games. |
well to you too - I appreciate your trying to take this in a different (the opposite?) direction from where I was going - thats exactly the conversation I wanted to start
Battlefield 1942 - yup, though I didnt mention any FPS, and i dont tend to think of them as history games, you are completely correct, an FPS in a historical setting does belong there.
RTCW? Dont really know it - doesnt it involve time travel? - I would suggest that since time travel does NOT occur in history, and is however a convention of science fiction, that it belongs in Sci-fi - in the same way Mike Uhl's "Time Threat Paradox" scenario for Civ:TOT is sci-fi, and in the same way that Stirlings "Island in the Sea of Time" is normally shelved with science fiction.
C&C Generals: Dont play C&C myself - isnt that set in an alt universe where WW2 had a different outcome? Now I realize that some would call many of the history games I like "alt history games" but they generally start with a historical setting, however much abstracted (even Civ2, if you start on a historic map, and dont worry too much about the names of some of the starting civs) - the alt history starts from there. But a game that starts out with different units and techs based on an alt history that happens before the game starts is not a history game - and when taken into the present era, do not thereby become contemporary life games. A cont. life RtS should let Americans fight Pashtuns, Russians fight Chechens, etc. If it is too have Russians fighting Americans, it should be under a believable scenario, with a contemporary point of departure.
Dotn know about the Counter strike setting.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
You're insane LotM
We play games for fun, not because they are history, fantasy, SF, etc.
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I dont see your point. I go to the movies for fun. And yet i pick a movie based in large part on its subject matter. The subject matter IS PART OF THE FUN.
Similarly i read books for fun. Yet I tend to think of the books ive read by subject matter.
If games are a medium just like films or books, WHICH THEY CAN BE - then the subject matter is relevant.
Now I guess I must admit - some people DO find the mechanics of whichever game they play fun. Fine. Thats your privilege.
But i think it makes no less sense to approach games by subject matter. Certainly not insane.
In fact I daresay there are millions out there who buys games cause their interested in the subject matter.
All those teenage girls who buy the Sims - their mainly interested playing house, not in "simulations" oer se. Loads of people who play Simcity are interested in cities and urban planning. Most of the people who buy deerhunter games are - guess what - interested in deer hunting.
Of course these people are the dreaded "sunday gamers" Not the "hardcore" gamers who want the latest RTS who cares what the subject matter is - after all most of the clone type RTS are lousy models of ANY particular subject matter anyway, Right? whats fun to these people is making units, pushing the units, and big melee fights. And FPS' who cares about the subject matter, its mainly about shooting things, right? (which would mean it IS about the subject matter, just defined differently)
Rant over.
Now I'll admit lots of folks who play CIV dont do it with any interest in history. And lots of people dont understand the real historical nature of Civ - they get caught up in the inaccurate details and miss the underlying themes.
Last edited by lord of the mark on 20-11-2003 at 23:34
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14-10-2003 22:41
I have a nagging feeling that I'm forgeting a game in this category, though.
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