15-10-2003 05:01									#1
	Athlon 64 versus PowerMac G5 benchmarks: "Not even close" Inflate your Upload Space

Well, I was told by certain-nameless-people that my analysis of Apple's purported benchmarks was bull, and was stupid, and we had to wait for independent versions of final, shipping silicon. And now we have it. Unfortunately it only proves me correct.

Here's the benchmarks:
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article...749,pg,8,00.asp

My favorites:
Quake III Arena (1024x768):
PowerMac G5 dual 2GHz: 294fps
Athlon 64 single FX-51: 338fps

Microsoft Word:
Search and Replace
PowerMac G5 dual 2GHz: 16 seconds
Athlon 64 single FX-51: 5 seconds

Auto summarize
PowerMac G5 dual 2GHz: 12 seconds
Athlon 64 single FX-51: 6 seconds

Quicktime encoding
PowerMac G5 dual 2GHz: 72 seconds
Athlon 64 single FX-51: 33 seconds

Speaks for itself, doesn't it?

The entire article starts here: http://www.pcworld.com/news/article...749,pg,1,00.asp

	15-10-2003 05:30									#2
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your analysis of apple's purported benchmarks is bull, and is stupid.



man, the athlon 64 does look quite nice...

	15-10-2003 05:34									#3
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It is quite nice. It's actually a remarkably well-designed processor.

The K6 family sucked ass, the K7 family was pretty good, the K8 family is nearly perfect. I'm really impressed.

It's the little things that I like: SSE2 support, integrated heat-spreader so you won't break the core, on-die diode to prevent burning up, runs quite cool. I just installed AMD's new driver the other day for the Athlon 64s, which enables Cool and Quiet in Windows XP. It's basically PowerNow, and is in all K8 chips. It runs the chip at 800MHz when it's not in use to save power and heat, and adjusts itself 30 times a second so when you need the power it's right there.

	15-10-2003 06:30									#4
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I want 300+ FPS. Gives it to me, my precious!


Too much LoTR for me...

	15-10-2003 06:36									#5
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Quake III is four years old...300fps in Quake III is like 20fps in HalfLife 2.

	15-10-2003 07:39									#6
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Just for fun: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=97285

quote: Originally posted by Mr. Nice Guy The good thing about this is that no matter what, Apple has the fastest 64-bit personal computer on the planet; but not just that, but the only 64-bit personal computer on the planet.

quote: Originally posted by Agathon What's laughable is that anyone would take your opinion seriously, given your fanatical support for MS and Intel. In the past you've proved that you'll do anything to support your position - even post evidence from sites without reading them first. All your vaunted computer knowledge is worthless if no-one can take you seriously - and there is good reason not to, since you'll say anything to get your way. So why should this be any different?

Where are you guys?

	15-10-2003 09:53									#7
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Agathon's quote is still accurate. Being right on one claim doesn't negate all the other false claims you've made in the past.

	15-10-2003 09:58									#8
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"All the other false claims" being that I said iTunes deleted files when you changed your region to Canada -- which certainly did happen, as Apple's tech support confirmed as well as numerous internet sites which I have linked to.

The fact that it doesn't anymore tells you just how powerful public pressure is, but it certainly doesn't make that claim false.

Just because it doesn't happen anymore doesn't mean it never happened, and therefore doesn't invalidate that claim.

The fact is, I told everyone months ago that Apple's claims were bullshit and provided an approximate figure for how it'll perform in real-world apps by analyzing the SPEC ratings as compared to PCs.

Lo and behold, they were dead-on.

	15-10-2003 10:06									#9
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quote: The fact that it doesn't anymore tells you just how powerful public pressure is, but it certainly doesn't make that claim false. Just because it doesn't happen anymore doesn't mean it never happened, and therefore doesn't invalidate that claim.

You're still sticking with that lame "Apple changed it because people like me *****ed" routine? It's not true, since I know why my files are still around and it has nothing to do with changed policies on Apple's part.

quote: Lo and behold, they were dead-on.

I never said they weren't. I just don't trust you, so I'd rather wait for confirmation from another source.

	15-10-2003 10:06									#10
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Uh like anybody buys apple anyway. Why doesn't it just die already...

	15-10-2003 10:10									#11
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I'll say.

	15-10-2003 10:18									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten You're still sticking with that lame "Apple changed it because people like me *****ed" routine? It's not true, since I know why my files are still around and it has nothing to do with changed policies on Apple's part.

So it has nothing to do with them changing their ToS to say that you can't use the music outside of the USA to you can't use the service outside of the USA?

So why don't you enlighten me if you know why they're still around and it's not because Apple changed policies. While you're at it, why don't you explain why that guy's files were deleted and why Apple's tech support told him to read the fine print of the Terms of Service.

Anyway, I'm so sick of arguing with you about this. You've now resorted to a single-handed debunking attempt of anything I say by calling me a "liar", all of which is based entirely on my claim that iTunes did delete files when you moved to Canada. Which was certainly true, the links were there and still are there to prove it. You still insist somehow that I "lied" about it (God knows what logic crawls through your brain), so you still use it to this day as an attempt to discredit me. And it fails every time, in fact it reminds me of Fez more than anything else.

--------

But look at this purty picture! Y-axis being time in seconds to complete, of course.

Remember that the PowerMac is the

quote: world’s fastest personal computer and the first with a 64-bit processor

	15-10-2003 10:40									#13
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quote: So it has nothing to do with them changing their ToS to say that you can't use the music outside of the USA to you can't use the service outside of the USA?

Nope. It has to do with credit cards and their nationality, if you really must know.

quote: While you're at it, why don't you explain why that guy's files were deleted and why Apple's tech support told him to read the fine print of the Terms of Service.

I thought it was a girl? You're mixing up your stories.

quote: And it fails every time, in fact it reminds me of Fez more than anything else.

You miss the little guy, don't you? I can't see why, but I never could account for your odd tastes.

	15-10-2003 10:45									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Nope. It has to do with credit cards and their nationality, if you really must know.

It said that in the article I linked to months ago. How very astute of you to be able to comprehend it and assume I hadn't.

quote: I thought it was a girl? You're mixing up your stories.

Someone else called the person a girl and I just ran with it since I never remembered the gender of the person. Sure enough the guy in question is named Shawn and he's actually an executive-type person, which the links clearly describe. So you can knock it off trying to discredit me -- again. You can't do it very well.

	15-10-2003 10:50									#15
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quote: It said that in the article I linked to months ago. How very astute of you to be able to comprehend it and assume I hadn't.

If you comprehended it, why have you been grasping at straws for so long trying to find a reason for my files still being around? First it was my fault, since I was obviously too dumb to "change my region". Then, it was because of a change in Apple policy caused by the complaining of people like you. Now you say it is because of credit cards, acting as if you knew that the whole time. Jesus, and you wonder why no one trusts you anymore?

	15-10-2003 10:54									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten If you comprehended it, why have you been grasping at straws for so long trying to find a reason for my files still being around? First it was my fault, since I was obviously too dumb to "change my region"? Then, it was because of a change in Apple policy caused by the complaining of people like you. Now you say it is because of credit cards, acting as if you knew that the whole time. Jesus, and you wonder why no one trusts you anymore?

The last two are not mutually exclusive like you seem to assume. Apple did change their policy, which means even if your creditcard was switched to a Canadian bank it wouldn't be an issue. But surely you knew that...

And I have already admitted that I didn't know about the policy change until recently, Apple didn't exactly publicize it. So when you said yours weren't deleted after you changed your regional settings and all that to Japan, I really didn't have an explanation for you, other than PEBKAC. But I did look it up and they did change their policy.

Help me out here though -- what is with you and this lame technique? It's remarkably sad that for at least the last half-dozen or so Apple threads you never even discuss the content at hand and you just throw out constant ad hominems and bring up the iTunes and "I live in Japan look at me" stories...

Would it kill you to be on topic and to debate what's up for debate, rather than ranting that I'm not to be trusted because you don't seem to understand much of what was said about the iTunes deal in the first place...

I think it must also be said that I do appreciate the humour of this all though. Wasn't it just yesterday you were calling me a liar, but then changed that to "bending the truth"...and here you are, bending the truth beyond recognition to save face.

And for the record, I don't think it's true that "No one trusts me anymore" -- you and Agathon seem to have been hitting it off pretty well with your mutual rump-humping and chant about how I'm not to be trusted, no one else says a damn thing. Though I'm sure others don't trust me, too, just not "everyone".

	15-10-2003 11:00									#17
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quote: Would it kill you to be on topic and to debate what's up for debate, rather than ranting that I'm not to be trusted because you don't seem to understand much of what was said about the iTunes deal in the first place...

Since when have I "ranted" about your untrustworthiness? I just state that fact occasionally and that would be it if you didn't insist on coming up with outlandish excuses for your behavior. I don't care enough about you to keep the "debate" going if you don't participate, so If you're sick of me, just don't answer. This will probably be impossible for you, as you always have to have the last word, but it would be the best course of action.

quote: Wasn't it just yesterday you were calling me a liar, but then changed that to "bending the truth"...

I said you bend the truth, but to such an extent that I personally would consider it lying. My position hasn't changed.

	15-10-2003 11:02									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Since when have I "ranted" about your untrustworthiness?

Surely this is a rhetorical question.

	15-10-2003 11:20									#19
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Asher I think testing cpu speed on some specific software and making too big conclusions from the results is a bit silly since theres about zillion reasons for the speed differences.

Reasons like: these are not native Apple programs, did they use any kind of emulators to run those programs, maybe its OS' fault, maybe there was bad code in the software, it may have been ported in favour to Windows, the software wasnt 64-bit was it? Maybe G5 performs better on 64-bit software? Maybe they should use programs like SuperPi too?

Last edited by laurentius on 15-10-2003 at 11:25

	15-10-2003 11:23									#20
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Reasons like: these are not native Apple programs

Quicktime is not a native Apple program?

quote: did they use any kind of emulators to run those programs

No

quote: maybe its OS' fault

Who cares? If you buy a PowerMac, you use OS X.

quote: the software wasnt 64-bit was it?

It was 32-bit on both sides, since OS X isn't 64-bit and the Windows XP 64-bit is still in beta.

quote: Maybe G5 performs better on 64-bit software?

How does that make any sense? If anything, the Athlon will get even faster and more precise while the G5 will just get more precise. The G5 gets access to the same amount of registers in 32-bit and 64-bit mode, the Athlon gets the number of public registers available doubled by upping to x86-64 for a 20-30% performance gain.

quote: Maybe they should use programs like SuperPi too?

We've already established that the synthetic benchmarks ran better thanks to SPEC and NASA's testing, this was "real world" testing.

	15-10-2003 11:27									#21
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Sorry Asher I just edited my post...I know editing posts later is a bad habit but you're so quick to answer and I thought you were sleeping or something....dont you ever sleep in canada?

	15-10-2003 11:30									#22
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The thing is, though, the only program people have tested so far that runs just as well if not better on Apple than PC hardware is Photoshop -- which isn't much of a surprise.

Synthetic CPU benchmarks show the Athlon 64 to be more powerful, we've known that for quite a while now. People were saying to wait until the real-world independent tests come out.

And now we have some. I really don't think porting and whatnot is an issue (Adobe supports both platforms), QuickTime and Photoshop are both used and they're both heavily Apple optimized, and Word is used which is arguably PC-optimized. But in the end -- who cares? These are real programs real people will use, and what good is it if it takes 3x as long to do on a top of the line Apple computer that'll set you back $3000 versus a $2000 AMD box?

	15-10-2003 11:35									#23
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Well, AMD has a tradition of making very fast CPUs. It's entirely possible that Athlon 64 is faster. BTW who makes the G5 chips?

	15-10-2003 11:36									#24
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IBM.

The G5 is a very much cut down Power4, which is a 2001-era chip.

	15-10-2003 11:40									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

IBM huh. Havent really been the cutting edge for some time have they...If ever. Take it like this Asher, its the fastest Mac CPU ever

	15-10-2003 12:23									#26
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If this is about the PC World article then it ought to be taken with a pinch of salt. Some of those machines cost quite a bit more than the top end G5. In any case the comparisons are hardly knock down proof.

For instance comparing Mac performance on Premiere when Adobe has stopped developing it for the Mac because it was being spanked by Final Cut Pro due to performance issues among other things is a bit daft.

And as for Word - as a user of Word X I can say it is definitely sluggish - but that's MS' fault for poor programming, not Apple's.

Some people claim to have had much better results from Quake. Check out arstechnica's forums for some discussion of it. I'd expect the AMD to beat the G5 in this test anyway, since PCs tend to be better for games. More work to be done here.

That leaves Photoshop. If these benchmarks are accurate then the dual 2 GhZ G5 beats everything apart from the Polystation 2 which costs $500 more than it does. And it comes pretty close to that. If they are accurate that is, and there is no skullduggery.

This hardly justifies the "no contest" rubbish. But then, exaggeration seems to be the norm these days.

	15-10-2003 13:00									#27
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quote: And as for Word - as a user of Word X I can say it is definitely sluggish - but that's MS' fault for poor programming, not Apple's.

You're right on that.

quote: This hardly justifies the "no contest" rubbish. But then, exaggeration seems to be the norm these days.

	15-10-2003 13:26									#28
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This thread is too polemical for my tastes.

	15-10-2003 13:54									#29
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Take it like this Asher, its the fastest Mac CPU ever

Yes, that fits nicely. Just like WinXP is the best Microsoft Windows Operating System ever.

	15-10-2003 14:00									#30
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Yeah just like Koff is the best finnish beer in the world.
And Ayinger Ur-Weisse being the best beer in the world

Last edited by laurentius on 15-10-2003 at 14:09