16-10-2003 08:55									#1
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What is your opinion?
It looks like it will come down to these two. Who do you think will win, and who do you think should win? Can either of them beat the Bush?

Let the games begin...

	16-10-2003 09:02									#2
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Well, Dean's not a liar who says he always was opposed to the war when in fact he supported it. Nor was he a Republican up until a couple of months ago. Since Bush's main strength is fooling people into thinking he's a straight shooter, if he doesn't get clobbbered on the lies about Iraq, then he'll be able to hammer Clark on integrity.

	16-10-2003 09:04									#3
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Dean done more than his share of flip-flopping so he's not much better there...

	16-10-2003 09:09									#4
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Yeah, but it's not fundimental to his identity. I'm highly iritated by the Clark campaign, which seems to me to be an attempt by the DLC to maintain their death grip on the Democratic Party. They hate Dean beause, despite his slightly left of center politics, he's energizing the "hated" Democratic Party base, which threatens their grip on power.

	16-10-2003 09:26									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko Dean done more than his share of flip-flopping so he's not much better there...

OK. This is where I am lost. Where is his flip-flopping? Show me examples. Even if the claims are valid, the issues he has been reportedly been insecure about are not central to his campaign. Politicians today have become too entrenched in party lines so that they are unable to think for themselves, which Dean is fighting against. If he is unclear on a few minor issues, so be it! He does not try to deceive people and is far from the vote-hungry change-on-a-whim manipulator that some on this site have made him out to be.

	16-10-2003 09:31									#6
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I prefer Clark over Dean.

But I'll vote for either one over Bush

	16-10-2003 09:33									#7
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quote: Where is his flip-flopping?

Trade issues is the biggest one I think.

	16-10-2003 09:42									#8
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With Deans flip flops on a lot of issues (free trade, Cuba, retirement age, the middle east, whether we should add or reduce the number of troops in Iraq, etc) mostly to get more votes in the primary, and will undoubtably flip flop again to the center if he ends up against Bush.

It's Clark for me. If it were Dean vs Bush, I probably wouldn't vote for either, or I might vote, reluctantly, for Bush.

Last edited by Edan on 16-10-2003 at 09:59

	16-10-2003 09:42									#9
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I believe Russert pointed out some of his differing views when he was on Meet the Press.

Dean really didn't do too bad on Meet the Press. But he did look like a weenie. But a smart weenie.

Last edited by Dis on 16-10-2003 at 09:48

	16-10-2003 09:45									#10
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I read the thread about Meet the Press, and it seemed like Russert just didn't give him a chance to explain himself. If I were Dean, I would have smacked him and said B*tch let me finish! I understood his positions perfectly, I would explain them to you but I have hours of homework still awaiting me.

	16-10-2003 09:47									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Edan If it were Dean vs Bush, I probably wouldn't vote for either, or I might vote, reluctantly, for Bush.

I sincerely hope this is not true... At least investigate the matter a little further before you do something so stupid as this.

	16-10-2003 09:51									#12
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quote: Originally posted by dainbramaged13 I sincerely hope this is not true... At least investigate the matter a little further before you do something so stupid as this.

I hope Dean's slogan isn't going to be "Don't vote for Bush, that's stupid".

Of course, Dean isn't inspiring me by countering criticism by other Democrats by saying that Bush is the real enemy, so they shouldn't be criticising him.

	16-10-2003 09:54									#13
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Dean all the way!!!!!!!!!

	16-10-2003 10:04									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Edan I hope Dean's slogan isn't going to be "Don't vote for Bush, that's stupid".

It'd work for me

quote: Of course, Dean isn't inspiring me by countering criticism by other Democrats by saying that Bush is the real enemy, so they shouldn't be criticising him.

Thats not all he's said... Yes, he used that line once or twice, but he was the first candidate to come out so strongly against Bush, and its a major part of his campaign; all the others seem to be copying his style now. Obviously he makes counter-arguments, and if you'd listen to the debates you'd see that.

	16-10-2003 10:12									#15
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quote: It'd work for me

Yeah, but he's already got your vote.

quote: Thats not all he's said... Yes, he used that line once or twice, but he was the first candidate to come out so strongly against Bush, and its a major part of his campaign;

Simply being anti-Bush is not a platform to become president on. It'll get you loads of extreme partisan support but won't win you an election (unless Bush's poll numbers go really south, in which case it doesn't matter who the Democrat is).

And if, as I predict, he moves to the center, he'll lose some of that partisan support and not get as much from the independents/center as the other candidates would, mostly from his continual flip flop floping.

quote: all the others seem to be copying his style now. Obviously he makes counter-arguments, and if you'd listen to the debates you'd see that.

I've only watched two of the debates but I haven't seen any reason to vote for Dean (and his counter-arguments were sometimes flip-flops in themselves. "Oh, I didn't mean that...", plus claims that just aren't true, like "I'm the only candidate to talk about racial issues in front of an all white crowd".. uh, right.. sure) Give me Clark, Gephart, Kerry or Lieberman. Just not Dean.

	16-10-2003 10:49									#16
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If the polls are to be trusted then Dean is the worst major candidate the Democrates could nominate. Kerry doesn't have any of the down sides of Dean or Clark plus the polls show he'd beat Bush.

	16-10-2003 11:02									#17
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yeah, but it's not fundimental to his identity. .

How convenient for you that his flip flops arent important but the flip flops of someone you dont like are very important.

	17-10-2003 00:59									#18
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No, if the polls are to be trusted, Lieberman is the worst possible "major" candidate the Dems can throw at Bush:

http://field.com/fieldpollonline/su...ers/RLS2098.pdf

In this poll, Clark is the only candidate with better numbers than Bush -- but they're all well within the margin of error. Clark also has better numbers because of his non-partisan/"other" support, which, because it isn't really tied to ideology, can swing either way very easily.

	17-10-2003 01:06									#19
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quote: Originally posted by rev No, if the polls are to be trusted, Lieberman is the worst possible "major" candidate the Dems can throw at Bush: http://field.com/fieldpollonline/su...ers/RLS2098.pdf In this poll, Clark is the only candidate with better numbers than Bush -- but they're all well within the margin of error. Clark also has better numbers because of his non-partisan/"other" support, which, because it isn't really tied to ideology, can swing either way very easily.

1. as you point out, the differences among the Dem candidates in this poll are within the margin of error.
2. This poll is of California only. hardly Leiberman's best turf.

	17-10-2003 01:09									#20
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hmm...well...I dunno...I guess I really haven't been very clear on my position...

	17-10-2003 01:10									#21
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so has clark yet explained WHY he voted for Reagan? I'm real curious to hear the answer.

	17-10-2003 01:11									#22
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quote: Originally posted by dainbramaged13 What is your opinion? It looks like it will come down to these two. Who do you think will win, and who do you think should win? Can either of them beat the Bush? Let the games begin...

a tad early to say who it will come down to, no? It hasnt even snowed in New Hampshire yet.

	17-10-2003 01:13									#23
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quote: Originally posted by rev No, if the polls are to be trusted, Lieberman is the worst possible "major" candidate the Dems can throw at Bush: http://field.com/fieldpollonline/su...ers/RLS2098.pdf

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh04gen.htm might be more worth looking at as it lists a bunch of polls. But either way, it's stll too early to tell which would stand the best chance against Bush because we don't know what the political landscape will be like in a year.

quote: Clark also has better numbers because of his non-partisan/"other" support, which, because it isn't really tied to ideology, can swing either way very easily.

He's just trying to get the bisexual vote.

	17-10-2003 01:14									#24
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yeah, but it's not fundimental to his identity. I'm highly iritated by the Clark campaign, which seems to me to be an attempt by the DLC to maintain their death grip on the Democratic Party. They hate Dean beause, despite his slightly left of center politics, he's energizing the "hated" Democratic Party base, which threatens their grip on power.

It may be an attempt by Terry McAuliffe and the Clintons I daresay its not the DLC as a whole. I know DLC type people who I cant believe wont be for either Leiberman or Edwards. Its a mistake identifying Bill Clinton to closely with the DLC - one of the secrets to his success was his ability to triangulate between the DLC and the partys left - something that Leiberman lacks.

	17-10-2003 01:16									#25
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quote: Originally posted by rev No, if the polls are to be trusted, Lieberman is the worst possible "major" candidate the Dems can throw at Bush:

Ok. According to your link Dean and Liberman are tied.

	17-10-2003 01:18									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Edan http://www.pollingreport.com/wh04gen.htm might be more worth looking at as it lists a bunch of polls. But either way, it's stll too early to tell which would stand the best chance against Bush because we don't know what the political landscape will be like in a year.

Interestingly most of the polls show Kerry and Clark doing the best against Bush, and Dean doing a tad worse than Leiberman. And this at a time when the perception of the situation in Iraq is quite negative (which should help Dean the most, and hurt Leiberman the most)

	17-10-2003 01:18									#27
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark so has clark yet explained WHY he voted for Reagan? I'm real curious to hear the answer.

BTW, has he said how he voted in '76 or '88?

	17-10-2003 01:21									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Edan BTW, has he said how he voted in '76 or '88?

'88 - I think he voted for Olympia Dukakis

	17-10-2003 03:06									#29
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I thought this was going to be Dean Cain vs. Clark Kent

	17-10-2003 03:09									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If the polls are to be trusted then Dean is the worst major candidate the Democrates could nominate. Kerry doesn't have any of the down sides of Dean or Clark plus the polls show he'd beat Bush.

Yeah, but his patrician ass has worse downsides. He is every bit the NorthEastern snobbish elite that Repugs constantly paint the Dem's as. He seems to disdain the unruley mob that is the American people.