16-10-2003 20:19									#1
	UNSC resolution 1511 passes 15-0 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

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	16-10-2003 20:27									#2
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Exactly what changes were made from the original one which didn't pass?

	16-10-2003 20:49									#3
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Another victory for the Bush diplomacy!

	16-10-2003 21:24									#5
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH

Why are you laughing? Everyone said that the Bush administration was alienating France and Germany. There was talk that the "anti-war" countries would not support a UN resolution dealing with Iraq. Yet, I see France, Germany and Russia voting yes, supporting the US-backed UN resolution. And I see a 15-0 vote in favor of the US proposal. Looks pretty good to me!

	16-10-2003 21:38									#6
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Another victory for the Bush diplomacy!

Oxy-moron inside

	16-10-2003 21:40									#7
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a victory for bush diplomacy because he gave them pretty much what they wanted? well, ok, if you say so...

	16-10-2003 21:40									#8
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Why are you laughing? Everyone said that the Bush administration was alienating France and Germany. There was talk that the "anti-war" countries would not support a UN resolution dealing with Iraq. Yet, I see France, Germany and Russia voting yes, supporting the US-backed UN resolution. And I see a 15-0 vote in favor of the US proposal. Looks pretty good to me!

Yeah, Bush kissed arse and caved into France and Germany's demands on the resolution very well.

	16-10-2003 22:09									#9
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what France and germany asked for was a timetable for turning over soveriegnty to Iraqis, with a deadline of a few months (which would mean BEFORE a constitution and elections). And to have the UN running things till then.

What they got - a deadline of December 15 for the Iraqi governing council to release a SCHEDULE for a new constitution and elections, to be followed by the hand over of sovereinty when the elections take place. The UN WILL have a role in the constition writing and election process, but the Coalition will remain sovereign till the Iraqis become sovereign, and the coalition will (IIUC) retain a role in constitution writing. Oh, and one "concession" the US made to the UN was that UN staffers dont HAVE TO show up if they think its not safe

Sounds like the US/UK got 80% of what they wanted, the French-Germans got 20% of what they wanted. How'd we do this? by somehow (one suspects threats and bribes were involved, as well as a general desire to move things forward) got over the weekend the support of all the non-muslim non-permanent members. That meant we could pass resolution 10-0 (given that france and russia had already said they wouldnt veto) And we said we would, and didnt care about a weak looking majority - so you want on board, got to get on board now. We then sucked up to Russia, and made some specific changes to accomodate them. Yesterday Russia, China and Pakistan all said theyd vote yes. France and Germany apparently werent eager to be isolated beside Syria, and caved. Whats particularly striking is that even Syria voted yes rather than abstaining - just a few days ago it was expected that Syria would vote no.

	16-10-2003 22:11									#10
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here's what the BBC says about the resolution

"The broad shape of the resolution that was put to the vote has not changed dramatically.

The resolution confirms that for the time being the Coalition Provisional Authority will remain the over-arching power in Iraq, although it stresses that the transfer of sovereignty and government back to the Iraqi people will happen as soon as practicable.

The United Nations is promised a strengthened vital role in the political and economic reconstruction process, but only as circumstances, particularly security, permit.

Still missing is a clear timetable, with dates, for a transfer of power and anything like the more dominant role that the UN had sought, our correspondent says.

But the resolution asks Iraqi leaders to draw up a plan for a new constitution and elections by 15 December. "

	16-10-2003 22:11									#11
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Another victory for the Bush diplomacy!

Another implies more than one.

	16-10-2003 22:17									#12
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spin it how you want to. i still don't understand why you're calling it a "victory" for bush diplomacy.

	16-10-2003 22:48									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed spin it how you want to. i still don't understand why you're calling it a "victory" for bush diplomacy.

I didnt call it that - i dont know if it was a victory for Bush diplomacy, or Powell diplomacy, or Blair diplomacy, or Jack Straw diplomacy, or maybe even Vlad Putin diplomacy . But it is quite clear that we didnt give them close to what they asked for, and probably not close to what they wanted (but who knows what they really wanted - what they asked for could have just been bluff, no?)

	16-10-2003 22:54									#14
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In fact the French and Germans are still saying it was not a good resolution.

CNN:

'Jean-Marc de la Sabliere, French ambassador to the United Nations, said the resolution could have gone further.

"It would have been desirable, in particular, for a clear-cut text to set timetables for transfer of responsibility and political transition," he said.

Gunter Pleuger, Germany's U.N. ambassador, said, "Although we consider the resolution to be an important step in the right direction," it could have been a better resolution if amendments proposed by France, Russia and Germany were "fully integrated."

"We missed a clear signal that transfer of sovereignty to Iraqis will be accelerated," Pleuger said. "The role of the United Nations, in particular of the secretary-general, could have been strengthened even more." '

	16-10-2003 23:01									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed spin it how you want to. i still don't understand why you're calling it a "victory" for bush diplomacy.

OK lets make it simple - we proposed a resolution. France, Germany and Russia got up in public and proposed something completely different. Kofi Annan said (in essence) the US/UK resolution was no good. The US made a few changes that - according to the BBC, confirmed by the French and German ambassadors, - left the resolution largely unchanged - and the resolution then passed 15 - 0 with the affirmative votes of France, Germany and Russia, and even of Syria.

	16-10-2003 23:02									#16
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark (but who knows what they really wanted - what they asked for could have just been bluff, no?)

Considering only the immediate consequences, we can safely say that all of them (15-0, even Syria) just wanted to help President Bush to get the Congress approval on the 87 billions request.

	17-10-2003 00:34									#17
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lotm, you do realize that half the time in ungainly bodies like the un, it's only the language that matters? thus, if those countries are satisfied that the new resolution gives them enough wiggle room to do what they want, then they'll go for it?

note that we did want troops from germany and france, neither of which will be forthcoming. the current trickle of funding doesn't seem to be becoming a waterfall just yet.

the resolution looks to be just more paper. now, you can claim that it's some big political and diplomatic victory, but then you have to also admit that the un means something--which, although maybe not you in particular, is something that the rightists have denied.

i ask again. how is this a substantial victory in diplomacy?

	17-10-2003 00:51									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed lotm, you do realize that half the time in ungainly bodies like the un, it's only the language that matters? thus, if those countries are satisfied that the new resolution gives them enough wiggle room to do what they want, then they'll go for it? note that we did want troops from germany and france, neither of which will be forthcoming. the current trickle of funding doesn't seem to be becoming a waterfall just yet. the resolution looks to be just more paper. now, you can claim that it's some big political and diplomatic victory, but then you have to also admit that the un means something--which, although maybe not you in particular, is something that the rightists have denied. i ask again. how is this a substantial victory in diplomacy?

I dont think french or german troops were ever likely to be forthcoming. The germans are tied up in Afghanistan, the French in africa. Frankly im not sure we'd be real keen to have french troops on the ground in Iraq in any case.

What does this achieve - makes it easier to get troops from India, Bangladesh, etc. Improves our bargaining position with Turkey. Provides political cover to Tony Blair. Provides political cover to Kozumi in Japan, who is sending $1.5 billion. May provide cover to other donors such as Korea. Probably helps with the "muslim street" outside Iraq. May help a bit with the "Iraqi Street" at least among the Sunni Arabs. And helps with the domestic situation in the US - as davout said, probably ensures passage of the $87 billion.

And yes, I think the UN does matter. Im not a UN hating right winger. That doesnt mean I think we need UN support for everything we do, or that we should treat it like a world govt. It represents some kind of consensus of opinion among major powers, and that is of some importance.

	17-10-2003 01:07									#19
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If people are going to laugh at Bush when he can't get a resolution passed by the UN, it's only fair that they don't when he does.

	17-10-2003 01:21									#20
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All politicians should be laughed at at all times.

	17-10-2003 01:32									#21
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH All politicians should be laughed at at all times.

I stand corrected.

	17-10-2003 16:57									#22
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quote: May provide cover to other donors such as Korea.

actually, korea's legislature has technically passed a resolution allowing their troops to be used in iraq. i think they're mostly combat engineers, but. only problem is, pres roh is kinda but not really linking the troop deployment to how well bush does in nkorea.

	17-10-2003 19:02									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: May provide cover to other donors such as Korea. actually, korea's legislature has technically passed a resolution allowing their troops to be used in iraq. i think they're mostly combat engineers, but. only problem is, pres roh is kinda but not really linking the troop deployment to how well bush does in nkorea.

Not unreasonable - it would be kinda dumb to send Skor military personnel to the Mideast when theres a significant chance of war on the peninsula. I was thinking more in terms of financial help, actually.