19-10-2003 04:40									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Nice work, MZ

don't thank me, thank E_T, it was his idea.

	19-10-2003 04:50									#32
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Just got this from mongoose. I presume he wrote it before getting MZ's e-mail.

quote: Okay...well, like I said, I didn't know if it was possible or not...just exploring all possible options. Especially since I, too, have noticed the almost total lack of response from GWT on any issue, even the recent rules poll. The last email I sent, I sent to all their email addresses that they are recieving their turns at. I will email them again now. I don't hold out much hope at this point that I will receive a response, however. Later, mongoose201

	19-10-2003 06:06									#33
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Chat with mongoose:

quote: [19:00] * mongoose201 has joined #isdgfamtalks [19:00] [mongoose201] Greetings [19:00] [mongoose201] anyone still around? [19:07] [Arnelos] hey [19:07] [Arnelos] what's up? [19:07] [Arnelos] I've been out for the past few hours... seems that discussion has been VERY active [19:07] * Arnelos slaps MasterZen[Eating] around with the Bush Doctrine! [19:10] [MasterZen[Eating]] hey [19:10] [MasterZen[Eating]] sorry back [19:10] * MasterZen[Eating] is now known as MasterZen [19:10] [Arnelos] I think he went idle [19:10] [mongoose201] I'm here [19:10] [Arnelos] cool [19:11] [MasterZen] great [19:11] [MasterZen] so, I guess you read the letter [19:11] [mongoose201] posting in the UN..brb [19:11] [Arnelos] MZ - everyone in the DDG submitted their moves early... should I wait out the last hour before posting adjudication results or give them the final hour to reconsider? [19:11] [MasterZen] if they submit they submit, I don't see why they would change them [19:12] [mongoose201] Posted..I took the heat on myself so everyone wouldn't think it was you guys alone holding up the turn [19:13] * nye-away is now known as nye [19:13] [nye] hello [19:13] [MasterZen] ok, thanks a bunch [19:13] [mongoose201] greetings [19:13] [MasterZen] I noticed Thors_Enkel was online at the UN forum while I was lurking a few minutes ago, I hope he sees it [19:14] [Arnelos] mongoose - just read your post - you rock [19:14] [mongoose201] he doesn't seem to be on right now [19:14] [mongoose201] hehe..I rock, eh? [19:14] [mongoose201] I haven't been told that in a while [19:15] [Arnelos] (chuckle) [19:16] [MasterZen] ok, just checked it out, excellent, again thanks for butting yourself in the fire for us [19:16] [MasterZen] *putting [19:16] [mongoose201] no problem..we don't need everyone knowing what we are up to... this HAS to be a private matter [19:16] [MasterZen] yep [19:17] [Arnelos] I agree with that 100%, no matter what *some others* may think' [19:17] * Arnelos glares at BigFree|Away [19:17] * MasterZen stares at BF too [19:17] [mongoose201] okay..I must have missed that one earlier [19:17] [Arnelos] [19:17] [mongoose201] [19:18] [Arnelos] seriously, though, until we're ready to go public with all available evidence if the case is strong enough, this indeed should remain quiet [19:18] [MasterZen] that's what some of us have been saying all day... [19:19] [mongoose201] yeah, I agree...this is not a public issue until there is a rule broken [19:19] [Arnelos] both to protect GCA from slander in the event (granted unlikely) that this remains fair play and because you don't WANT to go public until you have everything ready [19:19] [MasterZen] first and foremost this is a private petition that Apolyton has asked you to resolve, it is not something up for debate or discussionat the UN... unless we are proven correct [19:20] [mongoose201] Yes, I prefer to have enough to put out there at one time...like a bomb. If there is a problem of course, but like I said in my email. The odds that they are working against border on preposterous [19:20] [mongoose201] correct [19:21] [MasterZen] plus, we don't want other teams to think we are whiny *****es, you are the only one we allow to know we are in fact whiny *****es [19:22] [mongoose201] hehe...well, at this point, I've gotten used to whining *****es...not all of them from Poly either [19:23] [Arnelos] to be honest, we did not put all that much stock in previous claims of GCA "fantastic luck" until now [19:24] [mongoose201] yeah... The last time I checked their turn in this manner, I had no problems doing what they did, but I have to tell you, I never would have made the attacks they made...It seemed like suicide to me. That still didn't disprove that they were reloading, but how can you prove that [19:25] [Arnelos] I think one way would be to explore different possibilities... see how many of the possibilities of order of attacks and what to attack are better/worse than the one taken [19:25] [Arnelos] just a thought [19:25] [Arnelos] would be time-consuming [19:26] [mongoose201] sure, but the first go, I did exactly what they did.... Now..what they could have done, is if they were worried about the outcome, they could make the attacks, and if they didn't worked, then reload and not make them..or vice-versa [19:27] [Arnelos] that's one method [19:27] [Arnelos] the thing is... this case is extreme enough that reloading the save to prevent bad attacks may not be enough to fully explain the outcome [19:27] [Arnelos] and yet it might... if they both got very lucky AND they were reloading [19:27] [MasterZen] they would of course alwways give the "well, someone wins the lottery and look at the odds" but no one wins the lottery 3 years in a row... [19:28] [Arnelos] there are also millions of people playing the lottery... somebody has to win [19:28] [mongoose201] true..I've never had the luck that they have had...you guys had to be shocked when you opened the turn [19:28] [MasterZen] some of us, myself included, think that there's perhaps some very little known way of altering the RNG in a way most people don't know about [19:29] [Arnelos] there was definately a great deal of shock [19:29] [Arnelos] that said... it speaks to how much of an advantage we have in this war that we could STILL beat them despite the loss [19:29] [MasterZen] we had this guy in our strategy forum, called fanes7, said he would win on deity and get EVERY ancient wonder just by leaders. He could never prove it without reloading and perhaps doing something else [19:29] [mongoose201] that is a massive army you have there [19:30] [Arnelos] MZ - oh yeah... I forgot about that guy [19:30] [mongoose201] Every ancient wonder?...on Diety?... that would be one I would like to see [19:30] [MasterZen] yeah, no-one believed it, we set up a game for him to prove it and hen ever could [19:31] [Arnelos] probably just blowing smoke [19:31] [MasterZen] he showed pics of his game doing it [19:32] [MasterZen] so he did manage to do it somehow [19:32] [mongoose201] I've won once on Diety..and it was a clawing and scratching fight the whole way [19:32] [mongoose201] probably modded the rules, maybe? [19:32] [MasterZen] reloading seems to be just too burdensome to get the EXACT results you want, which is why perhaps there's some other way we don't know about [19:33] [Arnelos] well, we do know there are otehr ways to tweak the RNG table... but nothing incredibly substantial [19:33] [mongoose201] Is there a way they could determine where the Random Number is in the sequence? and determine the sequence? [19:34] [MasterZen] well, I don't know much about how that really works [19:34] [Arnelos] could we ask Gramphos about this? [19:34] [MasterZen] we could perhaps ask him if there's an easy way to hack the RNG [19:35] [mongoose201] It's far fetched, but if they could determine the sequence, and how each number comes up, and what affects it, you could line up your whole turn... very far fetched, of course [19:36] [Arnelos] you know... mongoose could easily prove it was cheating if he played their file, but wouldn't it be possible to use Gramphos' utility to just remove a few enemy units and wound your own? [19:37] [Arnelos] simulating the existence of combat without any taking place [19:37] [mongoose201] ?..I guess I've never heard of that one [19:37] [Arnelos] thing is... it woudl be incredibly easy to catch [19:37] [MasterZen] especailly but not triggering our GA... [19:38] [MasterZen] you know, if they had triggered it we really could have had no way of guessing if they were cheating that bad [19:38] [Arnelos] indeed [19:38] [mongoose201] yes, that's the thing that just baffles me...NO GA with all those NM's [19:38] [Arnelos] it's the lack of a GA that provides the underpinning for knowing how bad the odds are [19:40] [mongoose201] I'm overstating the obvious, of course, buy a GA right now for you guys would make your production, which is already great, explode [19:40] [Arnelos] oh, we know [19:40] [Arnelos] we've been planning this for ages [19:40] [MasterZen] literally in civ terms [19:41] [mongoose201] sorry if it takes me a sec to respond...I'm popping back here between plays in the football game [19:41] [Arnelos] ah [19:46] [mongoose201] hehe..Kentonio is sneaking around on 1bc...haven't seen him on in a while [19:56] [mongoose201] 1bc is being invaded! there is one regular (me), 4 from poly, and kentonio, and two guys who have never posted. lol [19:56] [Arnelos] who are the 4 from poly? [19:57] [mongoose201] It doesn't update that often...so it lists the ones who have been on recently... you, nye, ET, and masterzen [19:57] [Arnelos] yeah, I haven't been on in a while

see... told all you nay-sayers it would best be resolved in private

	19-10-2003 08:02									#34
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Well I agree Arnelos, it should be. But mongoose seems to be on board with getting the data and making a decision so that is a good thing.

Good luck, I hope this all turns out for the best!