17-10-2003 18:39									#1
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Here's what he's said in his response:

quote: Greetings Arnelos, I will check the GCA save as soon as I recieve it. For some reason, which I am now trying to determine, GWT has not been forwarding a save to my ISDG address as everyone else has... I have email ThorsEnkel and should recieve the save from him in the next day, if not sooner. As you mentioned, this is not the first time I have been asked to check a save of GCA's in this matter. On the previous occurance, the GCA units had defeated superior foes with much the same "luck"...although not nearly so lucky has you have outlined in you email to me. When I checked the save from the previous occurance, I opened the save, and once the city production updates were complete, I began attacking with the units in question. In that instance, I had zero problems repeating the same results that they had achieved when the save was sent on. First try, all attacks came out exactly as they did in the save that was opened by the team who was attacked. That being said, the odds you have laid out border on preposterous. In no games that I have ever played, have I had such a overwhelming advantage when attacking superior units. However, as you have laid out, such an occurance is possible, although highly unlikely. So, we will know more when I get the save from GWT, and I will update you at this address at that time. I will also probably inform Trip as well, since we are often on IM at the same times. Thanks, mongoose201 P.S. To ensure that I get any messages from you asap, please send all messages other than game saves to mongoose201@hotmail.com. This will ensure that I will get your message as soon as I get online.

	17-10-2003 18:42									#2
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My response to Mongoose for now:

quote: Mongoose, I've received your response and passed it on to people at Apolyton. Thank you and I'll certainly update you if anything new comes up. - Arnelos

	17-10-2003 19:13									#3
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YES!

Sounds like mongoose is taking this as seriously as it deserves... Either that or Arn dazzled him with his figures

The only thought left in my mind now is what would happen if he found GCA's position wanting.

What could we do? There would be no going back several turns, which would be extremely disruptive and unfair on the other teams - reparations somehow? But what could we ask for? If GCA is found to be cheating, they are hardly likely to agree to a measure that restores the balance, so should we just leave it in mongoose's hands as to what to do? He could receive the save from whoever GCA gets it from, play their turn with his own alterations and then GCA is punished. But then again could we really leave such a decision in the hands of one person?

I think, unless mongoose has better ideas, we should aim to get a hold of a group of several civvers to play GCA's turn for them with suitable punitive measures (disbandings perhaps), much as the group who were assembled who decided on some matter at the DG before (can't remember what the issue was exactly). We could try to force GCA to punish themselves by following a list of less than optimal orders, but there is no way of checking these, and it is again unlikely GCA would obey such a ruling if they have already resorted to cheating.

	17-10-2003 19:49									#4
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As stated in another thread - if GCA was "caught cheating", I would not be interested in continuing the game.

	17-10-2003 21:20									#5
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Clearly the results are reproduceable - if you do them *just so* Therefore, Mongoose will be able to duplicate the results. The real key is the sequence of moves/build orders/whatever that is necessary to duplicate the combat results. If they are wacky enough that Mongoose finds them fishy, then we're in business (though that would suck, because it effectively ends the game). If they are straightforward, then he will be forced to conclude that they just got *very* lucky.

-Arrian

	17-10-2003 21:44									#6
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Well, if GCA is caught cheating, I don't think it should be US who leave the game. I mean, obviously it will be up to Mongoose, but I think a GCA surrender from the game would be most appropriate. The question would be how to divide up their holdings; perhaps they should just raze their cities, hand their capital over to us (though perhaps they should actually raze the captial first, as giving us the GL might be considered a little too unfair), and then have their lands open for resettlement by whomever can get there to use it.

	17-10-2003 22:16									#7
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Arrian,

Agreed. I've already brought up the matter with Mongoose about how altering the RNG can be accomplished by a team with command of the save along with the concern of reloading the save file... something that directly violates the "playing ahead" rule made at the start of the game.

As far as I'm concerned, I believe that preventing further infractions may have to be sufficient as a means for how to deal with this if it is true. Once we get into repaying civs who were hurt, problems with CFC and CDG arise.

	17-10-2003 22:23									#8
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@ ZargonX

I'd demand that GCA would disband all their units inside Algalord (before their attack last turn) and leave the town to us.
I'd also demand that Mongoose would play the punitive turn for GCA, because now that they've been caught red-handed, they cannot be trusted for disbanding those units and might just move them out of the town.

	17-10-2003 22:27									#9
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If we're going to demand reparations, then obviously CFC deserves to be compensated too (same goes for CDG, but they're already dead and the players have scattered between teams).
We can use this to earn some diplomatic credits, and call CFC representatives to a meeting and offer to make a mutual claim against GCA.

	17-10-2003 23:45									#10
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To be honest, if our claim is upheld, then I see no other option but for GCA to leave the game and either destroy all their units and cities, or to secede them to both us and CFC. How could they continue to play if they are found to be cheating? How could anyone else want to play with them in the game?

The ISDG can only operate with trust, and GCA has apparently broken it. Kicking them out of the game would send a strong message to all other teams and would ensure that teams in future games know the consequences of such an action

	18-10-2003 00:17									#11
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So far so good.

	18-10-2003 00:30									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Clearly the results are reproduceable - if you do them *just so* Therefore, Mongoose will be able to duplicate the results. The real key is the sequence of moves/build orders/whatever that is necessary to duplicate the combat results. If they are wacky enough that Mongoose finds them fishy, then we're in business (though that would suck, because it effectively ends the game). If they are straightforward, then he will be forced to conclude that they just got *very* lucky. -Arrian

This is so true. Can we trust mongoose to act accordingly here? If mongoose comes back with "I see nothing wrong", then we need to take this to a third party that we know and trust. I still have my doubts about mongoose because of the map irregularities.

	18-10-2003 01:27									#13
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Well, what motive would he have in taking GCA's side, especially with the Map irregularities?? If that was the case, GCA's lands would be equil to CGN's lands. There would have been no ability on our part to have fought them to this point, it would have been futile.

On that note, it's interesting that GRN hadn't taken a more cautious diplomatic approch to CGN, like we had with CDG. That is likely our saveing grace up to this point in time.

E_T

	18-10-2003 02:21									#14
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree This is so true. Can we trust mongoose to act accordingly here? If mongoose comes back with "I see nothing wrong", then we need to take this to a third party that we know and trust. I still have my doubts about mongoose because of the map irregularities.

I would ease up a bit on the map irregularities. I suspect he did not mean to favour any one team or the other. It was probably the first map generated by the game, it had 8 teams split 4 each on a continent. Some had better starts than others. He may not have extrapolated the uneven starts into the longer term advantage, and we were were harping on him to get it done.

I think this will always be a bone of contention in MP games ssuch as this, but the alternative is a chess-like map set up that would be both inconsistent with the nature of civ in the first place, and a bit sterile.

Now - on the odds issue and replay of the turn - lets just see what he comes back with.

	18-10-2003 04:00									#15
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I've just been catching up... all I can say is HOLY SH*T!!!

1) GCA has been cheating. Period. I find it highly unlikely that this was accomplished through sheer manipulation of attacks... my guess is that Mongoose will NOT be able to replicate their successes.

2) If caught red-handed, I agree that GCA should be forced to resign ASAP, and allow a third party to dismantle their civ (mechanism tbd).
___________________

That said, I would like to extend my most sincere compliments to the Consuls, the MOI, and especially the MOW, for prosecuting a most excellent war.

In the absence of such egregious cheating, I'd love nothing more than to mow down GCA *anyway* and show the world what 'poly is capable of... (and on that note, the analysis of GCA's actions has been stunning ).

This can be resolved in such a way as to not waste the tremendous investment in this game, and to continue towards Apolyton's ultimate victory.

	18-10-2003 04:30									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus I've just been catching up... all I can say is HOLY SH*T!!! 1) GCA has been cheating. Period. I find it highly unlikely that this was accomplished through sheer manipulation of attacks... my guess is that Mongoose will NOT be able to replicate their successes. 2) If caught red-handed, I agree that GCA should be forced to resign ASAP, and allow a third party to dismantle their civ (mechanism tbd). ___________________ That said, I would like to extend my most sincere compliments to the Consuls, the MOI, and especially the MOW, for prosecuting a most excellent war. In the absence of such egregious cheating, I'd love nothing more than to mow down GCA *anyway* and show the world what 'poly is capable of... (and on that note, the analysis of GCA's actions has been stunning ). This can be resolved in such a way as to not waste the tremendous investment in this game, and to continue towards Apolyton's ultimate victory.

Well said. Here! Here!

	18-10-2003 04:54									#17
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If they're proven to cheat I say we simply publically humilliate them in the UN forum, AND THEN kick their ass in the war just to prove that Poly without cheating, can still kick the everliving **** out of anyone else who does.

	18-10-2003 05:01									#18
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MZ - I was thinking about the same thing. The community is small enough. We know who is on the team; we just let the public make its own judgement.

	18-10-2003 05:44									#19
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MZ wouldn't it pretty much destroy us if we faced a team that cheats?

	18-10-2003 07:07									#20
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As we have stated in the other thread, there is only so much they can do, as far as we know, to effect the RNG of the game. You still have to deal with wounds and losses, but not as much as you would normally have if you didn't manipulate them.

So, yes, we will beat them, even if they are cheating AND they continue to do so, we will be victorious. It will just take a little bit longer, but the final victory will be that much sweeter.

E_T

	18-10-2003 07:56									#21
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Cheating is wrong and something needs to be done. Maybe we should develop a consensus on what we want done with them because of the cheating.

And I agree it needs to be done in such a wat as to be able to maintain play of the game. You guys and the other sites have put way to much effort into this to throw away this "event".

That is what makes this so very sad. And so incredibly stupid of them. The sad part is they cheated and the cheating affects literally hundreds of people. The stupid part is they didn't think we would notice, puuuleazzzze.

Hopefully Mongoose will agree and then we can get some rapid conclusion to this unfortunate incident

	18-10-2003 07:56									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master MZ wouldn't it pretty much destroy us if we faced a team that cheats?

We are winning at the moment and by a long shot. How would that change?

	18-10-2003 12:56									#23
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It would only drag our war out longer and cause us to 'waste' or GA on Military build up versus infrastructure. We would still win it, but it will cost us much more if GCA cheats.

	18-10-2003 22:43									#24
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Just got this from Mongoose. Sounds like he's starting to go nutty... see from my next post that I'm trying to rein him back in a little.

quote: Still nothing from GWT...I have sent two emails to all of their addresses. I will send another if I do not hear from them by the time I get home from work. Perhaps it's the conspiracy theorist in me, but do you guys have an idea of when GCA and GWT gained contact between each other? Lucky is German if I am not mistaken, so their would be no problem with a language barrier that they pretend exists from time to time. Like I said, just curious, to satisfy the conspiracy theorist in all of us. Thanks mongoose201

	18-10-2003 22:46									#25
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My response... "calm down Mongoose... that's just GWT being GWT". It is worth noting, however, that this seems to confirm suspicions that Mongoose has sympathies for CGN... I do not believe (even now) that this resulted or will result in any active intervention in the game itself on their behalf, howver... Mongoose just seems to have a habit of sitting in CGN's turnchats and chatting with their leadership in their embassy IRC channel (where I now hang out as well). I think he's rather friendly to CGN compared to other teams, but I do not believe Mongoose would outright cheat for any team.

quote: Mongoose, They gained contact within the past few turns, I believe. I do not believe there is a GCA-GWT conspiracy. This is par for the course when it comes to GWT, quite frankly. Our team received our first e-mail response from GWT in over THREE WEEKS yesterday, despite repeated attempts to get them to respond previously. CGN has had similar problems reaching them. The problem is not merely a language barrier, it's a simple failure to communicate. We know that GCA and GWT have at least exchanged some limited information (likely when they made contact) because GWT in the message they sent hinted that they had more knowledge about our war and how it started than we had told them ourselves. That said, I find any thought of a GCA-GWT conspiracy doubtful in the extreme. If GCA (or simply someone from GCA) is cheating, it's more likely they wouldn't trust GWT or ANYONE with that information. If you'd like to double-check, though, I see no problem with you inspecting the save sent to GWT from the team before them. As for getting the save from GWT, you may want to mail individuals from GWT other than Thors Enkel and see if they respond. Thanks. - Arnelos

	19-10-2003 04:04									#26
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sent to mongoose a few seconds ago, the idea is to do a new idea that E_T had to break the deadlock between sending the save or not.

quote: Hello mongoose, We have been discussing this whole GCA cheating issue in our chat for the last couple of hours. An idea sprang to mind that could get GWT to submit their save faster. The idea here is to post a request in the UN forum (say, in the turn counter thread) that all teams need to submit to you their last save again before the game can resume. This will not reveal what is the intention of the investigation, nor does it point the finger at GCA specifically since we have still not yet proven that they cheated until save has been tested. This also takes some heat off of us since there is a small group of people who do not want to send the save which is the reason we are not doing so and I wouldn't be surprised if other teams are somewhat annoyed that we are holding it. Obviously the whole point of this would only be to get GWT to submit it quick, and we feel this might be an easier way than trying to personally contact them since they have a tendency to take their time with communication. Furthermore, I would like to invite you to our chat room to discuss this in more detail. You may access the irc.apolyton.net server (port 6667) and then go to the #isdgfamtalks room. There is no password and there is usually always someone present. We would be honored by your company hopefully as soon as possible. For the moment this is all I have to say, we look forwart to talking to you directly on this matter and hope that this issue is resolved one way or another so that the game can continue at full speed. Thank you and best regards, -Master Zen Apolyton Deputy Foreign Affairs Minister

	19-10-2003 04:07									#27
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Nice letter MZ. Lets hope all the teams, including GWT react to mongoose's request. Maybe GWT is delaying it because they are in cahoots with GCA! (mongoose has suggested this himself, IIRC)

	19-10-2003 04:09									#28
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Couldn't we take this a step further and ask Mongoose to email the representatives of all the teams?

	19-10-2003 04:19									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Couldn't we take this a step further and ask Mongoose to email the representatives of all the teams?

The problem is that the team we want to respond (GWT) is rather slow on responding. It's only GWT's save we want mongoose to have, not anyone elses. While I was checking out the UN forum when writing this I noticed that Lucky, Thors_Enkel and many other people were online in that forum which means they DO check it frequently.

	19-10-2003 04:36									#30
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Nice work, MZ