07-06-2000 23:36									#1
	Lord of the Rings V4: Event.txt Increase Your PM Length

I have a question regarding the new version.

Maybe the givetechnology events were pointing to the wrong techs? It makes no sense to give Mondor 'End tech 6 (Elves)'.

Also readme.txt said that Gondor could produce spies, but actually couldn't.

Anyone have beaten the scenario? I'm trying to write a strategy for it.

	08-06-2000 14:54									#2
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Hadn`t really noticed the events thing.

However, I have done Lord of the Rings ONCE, but not again. The key to it is presistance. Keep trying until you can. The best advice I can give is:

1.Read the book. It`s nigh on impossible to do this if you haven`t.

2.Build plenty of pikemen. Minas Tirith can churn out 1 per turn. In your bigger producing cities, build Dunedain, and use them to defend. They`re crap on attack.

3.If you have MGE, start a hotseat game and play as Gondor, Rohan and the Elves by yourself. This makes it easier to co-ordinate attacks, but it may also be considered cheating, I don`t know.

4.Although this contradicts point 1 slightly, don`t follow the plot of the book exactly. If, for instance, you go to Moria, you will lose all your heroes to the Balrog. Do, however, send your people out as a party and head for Minas Tirith. Also true to the book is Frodo`s entry point into Mordor; there is a small gap in the enemy lines near Minas Morgul that you can fit through.

5.If you have any Dunedain at the beginning, keep them fortified where they are. Dol Amroth, for instance, is unconquerable if you keep Dunedain fortified there.

That`s the best I can offer for now.

	08-06-2000 17:51									#3
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There's a new version? (How) Can I get it?

	09-06-2000 09:08									#4
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Paul: Thanks for the tip.

My plot was to use a chain of longboats to ferry units to hobbittown and disband them to produce hobbits, then ferry the hobbits back to the South to defend my cities. Two hobbits a turn should be enough for me to hold out all front cities except Minas Tirith. Of course I'll occupy the Suntzu city as soon as I can to make the hobbits vets.

I plan to do the same thing to the Eagle, Ants, and Dwarf cities, but haven't figured out how.

For Minas Tirith I'll use the same strategy as yours (sacrafice pikemen to the attackers then use heros to counter-attack, thus trade a cheap unit for a good unit with Mondor).

Theoretically Bolrog(attack 15, hp5, fp3) will suicide against vet treebeard (defense 6, hp5, fp5) on mountain. But I haven't tried since it took forever to move the unit.

Andz83: download from Apolyton of course! Make sure it's version 4.

Edit: It has been out for a year. 'New' means it differes dramatically from previous versions, with more units and events.
[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited June 08, 2000).]

	08-06-2000 23:12									#5
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And where can I get it? The Scenario League is that shitty, I don't even find the current RedFront Version there. They only have 1.2 . Is 1.941 already available? I disgress, I don't know WHERE to get the CURRENT scenarios at Apolyton...

	08-06-2000 23:39									#6
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http://apolyton.net/civ2/db/ and click on 'Harlan Thompson' on the left.

Or you can download it from Mercator's site (don't remember the address).

RedFront 1.4 is available in Alex Mor's site (don't remember address) and Blackclove's site http://members.xoom.com/platehead

Both Apolyton and Blackclove's site have good link pages.

This site has both of them http://ziggurat.sidgames.com/zscenarios.cfm
[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited June 08, 2000).]

	08-06-2000 23:54									#7
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Thank you, Xin Yu!

	09-06-2000 00:03									#8
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It's Mordor not Mondor!
And Hobbiton not Hobbitown.

If those mistakes are included in the scenarios then God might **** you all in the ass!

	09-06-2000 00:20									#9
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Mondor was a typo of mine.
Hobbittown stands for 2 hobbit towns (which produce hobbit units), including hobbiton.
I have only read Hobbit, not Lord of Rings, so I'm not farmiliar with the names.

	09-06-2000 00:46									#10
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Hmm, there is a link in my sig that you might find useful...


------------------
St. Leo
http://ziggurat.sidgames.com/
http://www.sidgames.com/forums/

	09-06-2000 03:49									#11
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And its 'Ents' not 'Ants' I think...unless Harlan made a few changes in the last version...

Good strategies, Xin Yu, I did something like that but concentrated more on Eagles and Ents. Of course I always lost because I never had enough patience to wait long enough and just attacked too early every time. Oh well.

	09-06-2000 18:49									#12
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Yes, it's ENTS. Fangorn ENTS. Not Ants and not Andz

	09-06-2000 19:09									#14
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Thanks Pheonix. It's an honor.

'Ants' are the best units for attacking 'Mondor' cities once the ring is thrown to the dooms mountain. If I can build a lot of them I will move them to North and South, then cancel alliance with my allies, thus they will instantly move to the cities on the other side. This will take care of most 'Mondor' cities along the mountains. Just can't find out a way to get my cheap units there to disband and build 'Ants' every turn.

BTW, I think the 'anybody' trigger in civ2 really means the first civ who did it. So if I let the Elfs kill a Nazgul first, then when I kill them they won't reborn. Need to test it.
[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited June 09, 2000).]

	10-06-2000 09:16									#15
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I can cancel alliance with my allies to instantly move Frodo and the ring to the other side. Save a lot of turns! Why haven't I thought about it before?

Now I'm gonna exploit the diplomacy aspects of this scenario. I can get some useful techs from Isengard, and dump 'end techs' to it (maybe also to my allies ) so they'll not be able to produce good units. Hopefully they'll share the techs will Mordor.

	10-06-2000 00:47									#16
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I just couldn't believe it. Diplomacy RollS!
The first turn I talked to Isengard and gave them a lot of techs. Then I proposed an alliance. They asked me to disolve alliance with the Elves. I did and got an alliance with them, traded 4 techs, with which I could build battling rams and two improvements including forge (factory). Some of my units got teleported due to the resolved alliance (for example, gandolf and several Eagles got to the Ents city).
After 5 turns I moved my units closer to the Isengard cities and talked to them again. Of course this time the alliance dissolved, and Frodo and the Ring instantly got to the Ents city, plus a lot of other units. Now I can disband cheap units to produce Ents every turn.
Frodo and the Ring kept going East and joined the two Ents I sent out before. In 3 turns they were in position and Once I could sneak a settler in Mordor and put a city there I would dissolve the alliance with Rahan and puff! my mighty army will be teleported inside the heart of Mordor, with the ring ready to be thrown on the Dooms Mountain.
Because it was only testing I did not move a lot of units, so I don't know if it is possible to sneak a settler in.

	10-06-2000 10:36									#17
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Xin Yu,
You are a very, very devious man . Some of the things you suggest are clever indeed, but others I would consider taking unfair advantage of Civ2 loopholes. The Alliance cancellation thing I would stop if I could, but I couldn't. All civ relationships are meant to be permanent, but unfortunately Civ2 only lets you control that so much. The "anybody" trigger bug wasn't known when I made that, now I don't want to post a new version just to fix that.

So using those two loopholes (and I have no doubt, a few of the additional ones you're likely to come up with! ), I would consider unfair, please don't. The other strategies you mention above I would say are fair game.

PS- Anybody know of any sites these days that post the sounds to version 4 as well? Anybody else want to put the scenario on their website just let me know.
[This message has been edited by Harlan (edited June 10, 2000).]

	10-06-2000 23:30									#19
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Harlan: Thanks for responding! Please check the events.txt file to see if the givetechnology events are pointing to the right techs.

Did you say that except for cancelling alliance I can do other things in diplomacy? Like, trade techs with Isengard and dump 'end techs' to it so it cannot build good units anymore? (JK)

	11-06-2000 09:28									#20
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Xin Yu,
I may have missed with some of the techs. Noone has pointed that out before. If you know of specific examples, let me know. Perhaps you can also see if some neighboring tech would make more sense.

Tech trading and dumping I lumped in with your other alliance schemes- no, those are thumbs down as well.

	11-06-2000 10:42									#21
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Harlan: If I understand correctly you give techs in the following cases:

a) If Mordor gets the ring then Mordor gets a tech (with which Mordor gets money every turn). There is a tech in rules.txt named 'Sauron gets ring' which I believe should be the one, but you did not point the givetechnology event to it.

b) Same problem when Isengard gets the ring.

c) If Barad-dur is captured by Gondor then both Mordor and Isengard gets a tech, which I believe should be the endtech which expires their ability of building some tough units, but instead they got the elves endtech.

d) If barad-dur is captured then Gondor gets two techs, one of which will give Gondor money every turn and decrease Mordor and Isengard money every turn, another will allow Gondor to build the Mich wonder. This might not be correct in the events.txt as well (one of the two techs ends Gondor's ability of building some units!). There is a tech named 'King Return' or the sort should be one of the two techs, but I'm not sure about the other. (In fact there is no need to use two techs here.)

	12-06-2000 08:34									#22
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Xin Yu, you are a criminal genius!

	12-06-2000 20:22									#23
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Thanks again Mr. Temba!

This scenario is really hard. The best unit Gondor can produce is about 1/8 the strength of Mordor ones. Which means even behind city walls it still cannot hold out. Talking about attack, it cannot even win against the weakest Mordor units behind walls. And you suppose to win the scenario within forty some turns! Even with your heroes work like firefighters you need to be very lucky to occupy the scores of enemy cities.

It's just unfair! I strongly demand that using diplomacy is allowed!

	13-06-2000 01:44									#24
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I kinda agree with Xin Yu on that one. I mean if the average mordor units can kill your heros without any real problem...ya know. Some subterfuge is required.

------------------
Now the world don't move to the beat of just one drum
So if it might be right for you, it many not be right for some

	13-06-2000 02:29									#25
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Bwa-ha-ha-ha! Have I foiled Xin Yu and his his clever, scheming ways? Must he fight his way to Barad-dur the "old-fashioned" way?

	13-06-2000 20:34									#26
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Harlan: Give me the diplos back! In readme.txt you told me Gondor could build diplos. Where are they? If I have diplos then I don't need strong units. I just bribe them.

	13-06-2000 22:02									#27
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Look at the unit stats below:
Cost: 20 a/d/h/f
Gondor: Pikemen 1/2/1/1
Mordor: Orcs 5/2/2/2

Cost: 30 a/d/h/f
Gondor: Archers 3/2/1/1

Cost: 50 a/d/h/f
Mordor: Spiders 4/4/3/2
Gondor: Knights 4/2/2/1

Cost: 60 a/d/h/f
Gondor: Galley (Navy) 4/2/2/1
Mordor: Dromund (Navy) 7/3/2/1
Gondor: Catapult 8/1/1/1

Cost: 80 a/d/h/f
Mordor: Uruk-Hai 7/3/2/2
Mordor: Battering Ram 8/1/1/1

Cost: 90 a/d/h/f
Gondor: Dwarves 6/4/3/2 Only 1 city can build

Cost: 100 a/d/h/f
Gondor: Hobbits 5/4/3/1 Only 2 cities can build
Gondor: Dunedain 6/3/2/1
Mordor: Trolls 8/3/3/2
Mordor: Wolves 8/1/2/2

Cost: 120 a/d/h/f
Gondor: Eagle (Heli) 8/5/3/2 Only 1 city can build

Cost: 150 a/d/h/f
Gondor: Ents (Bomber) 10/5/4/4 Only 1 city can build. Move 1, can't go too far from home

Other: a/d/h/f
Mordor: Olog-Hai 10/5/4/2 Given to Mordor by events every 4 turns on average
Mordor: Dragon (Air) 12/6/4/2 4 exist at the beginning
Mordor: Nazgul (Air) 12/7/6/3 8 exist at the beginning
Gondor: Various Hero Units

The least expensive Mordor unit (Orcs, 20 shields) has a/d/h/f=5/2/2/2, while the best Gondor unit which can be built in all cities (Dunedain, 100 shields) has a/d/h/f=6/3/2/1.

Harlan: ARE YOU KIDDING?

	14-06-2000 00:16									#28
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No, I'm not kidding. I wanted to make a scenario one might actually lose. Too many scenarios are a romp in the park, the only question being how long will it take you to win. Just the same, I find I can win LotR at least 90% of the time (there is a bit of fingercrossing as Frodo gets near Mt. Doom). One of my friends actually got bored of it, claiming it was too easy!

The numbers you point out are also true to the book. Each evil unit represents a much large horde of individuals than the good units. The enemy was nearly immumerable. For instance, after Gondor's big win in Minas Tirith, it is pointed out that such a victory was akin to defeating one finger out of 10, with the other nine still headed towards you. At the end, what was left of the Gondor army staged a suicidal diversion attack near the gates of Mordor. Basically having the good guys win is supposed to be completely improbable and incredible, so that's what you've got to contend with in the scenario too.

PS- I found bribing too potent of a strategy, and having stone trolls fighting side by side with dunedain too improbable.
[This message has been edited by Harlan (edited June 13, 2000).]

	14-06-2000 00:44									#29
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Harlan: I can still win it.

But I won't tell you anything more about my strategy.

Just fix the events.txt then I'll publish my strategy guide.