18-10-2003 23:33									#1
	The Great War Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The AI has decided to gang up and try to topple the pre-eminent power of the world, in a feeble last gasp before they vanish into the dustbin of history.

Now, we get to have an awesome war before the game finishes.

Here's how the alliances stand.

On one side, you have the apolytonian Imperium with
68 cities, with a population of 16.7 million people, producing 409 mtons, with a GDP of 1.46 billion dollars.

On the other, you have the Heathen Alliance of Zulus, Greeks, Americans and Germans.

The Zulus have 6 cities, the Americans have 5, the Greeks have 32 cities, and the Germans have 16 cities for a total of 59 cities.

The Americans have 135 gold, the Zulus, 247, the Greeks, 645 and the Germans, funding the whole empire at 8098 gold.

Only the Americans are in a representative government, all the others may be bribe.

Now the Greeks have not met either the Americans or the Zulus, but otheriwise these 4 nations all have alliances with each other.

Standing in the corner you have the Russians, Allied with the Germans, and at peace with us just hoping to stay out of the conflict.

We have 22 active diplomats.

Now the Greeks have Pharsalos, home to the pivotal Sun Tzus.

Should we bribe the city? Why or why not?

	19-10-2003 00:38									#2
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I can vote on this one immediately. Pharsalos is in the midst of the Greek civ. We could probably bribe it but I don't think we could keep it long enough to get any advantage from it.

I think we should just plan to take Pharsalos in the normal course of events as we begin to take the Greek civ apart. When we get Sun's, we get it. But I don't see it as very useful to us in a pragmatic sense right now.

I'd be glad to be shown otherwise, though.

	19-10-2003 09:55									#3
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Why bother with Pharsalos?

Yes, we get the nice veteran effect from STWA. But then, every time we upgrade, the effect is lost. And STWA stops with Mobile Warfare, IIRC (or is it Combustion?). Either way, it may not be around for much longer, if we decide to pick up our tech rate.

I say capture Pharsalos when it's geographically next in line to be conquered, and more easily defensible.

	19-10-2003 11:47									#4
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We could sell all of our barracks with Sun Tzus.

I don't think that it will take that long to finish off the AIs, the biggest holdup is our railroad.

	19-10-2003 12:16									#5
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We could sell the barracks, yes.

I suppose I've never been a big STWA builder, especially not (relatively) late in the game. And we don't *need* it the way we needed Leo's, so I don't see us needing to go out of our way to get it. Particularly if the city will be vulnerable to recapture - even if only slightly vulnerable.

	19-10-2003 16:11									#6
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I don't think it's the right time to do this...32 cities is a lot, having 1 city nicely located in the middle of that is asking for problems...we might be able to bribe it(if we get a diplo that deep into their country without getting killed, but then we will need to defend the city with all we have.

This war isn't over yet(and atm I think our railroadingplans will catch up with our troops next session)

Germans will be a pest(they have half a dozen wonders= bribing their cities will cost a hell of a lot=> we will have to fight)


Shade

	19-10-2003 22:30									#7
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I've posted a Road/Railroad map on the "Tale of the Years" thread. It helps to see where we have good transport.

	20-10-2003 03:18									#8
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The problem with you people is that you all are civ builders and not warmongers, so you don't appreciate the true value of Sun Tzu.

First, there's not going to be any upgrade any more.
Second, all troops that happen to upgrade somehow will regain their vet status after first battle won.
Third, it is a known fact that veteran troops are more than 50% more effective than their green counterparts.

Unfortunately, you have succeeded to gain much popular support for your view that Sun Tzu is not important.

So be it!

But then, let's build some barracks and have some old-fashioned vets.

	20-10-2003 03:45									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

We may be, ljcvetko. But Leo's and Sun's don't match up well. If you have one, the other is not as much use as when alone. Leo's tends to cancel the benefit of Sun's. I have to admit I have always had some difficulty making use of both together.

If I have Sun's, them it is great to have Vet Knights and Crusaders, even Cavalry. But when units are upgrading, Leo's cancels the Vet status quickly. I'd rather have Leo's and Barracks (for new units at Cavalry stage) than Sun's if I am ever going to advance techs.

I expect we *will* get to Armor or Spies eventually. Having Leo's will undo any befit we get from Sun's.

But I would like to see your response demonstrating that we would be better with Sun's and Leo's together. I am always willing to learn something new (and it sure happens more than I expect).

	20-10-2003 04:23									#10
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Leo's is not likely to upgrade many more of our units, and even if it were, I still like the idea of bribing Pharsalos.

We are soon to be done with the Zulus, the Americans are in hiding, so the Greeks may be our next target. Why would we leave them with a Wonder that will greatly assist them in the war? I think we should find Pharsalos (which should have long since been done, I am amazed that we have not yet discovered the city) and attempt to bribe it, then let us work on adding those Greek cities between Pharsalos and our empire, so defeat the fears of trying to defend a city in the heart of Greek territory

Edit: but I don't want to sell the barracks until we have the city reasonably well secured

	20-10-2003 04:53									#11
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Pharsalos appears to be about as close into the center of the Greek civ as it can be, and they have 32 cities that seem to be tightly packed. Our Dips that explore in that area get killed easily. We might get at it to bribe it, but Sun's is a Wonder you have to keep to get value from. I don't thiunk we can hold on to Pharsalos if we bribe it.

Let us eat at an edge of the Geek civ first, to have some support cities nearer to Pharsalos. THEN let us bribe it and hold it.

	20-10-2003 07:10									#12
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Oddly, I tend to be a warmonger in the sxn games rather than a civ builder. With Sun Tzus we gain vets from every city without having to build and maintain barracks.

As for making Leos and Sun Tzu's work together, all you have to do is to make your upgraded non-vets kill something soft and easy since units that win a battle automatically become veterans.

I think we can hold Pharsalos, but I understand why we would want to have the railroad in place first.

	20-10-2003 11:12									#13
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When will Sun Tzu's become obsolete anyway?

	20-10-2003 12:00									#14
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Mobile Warfare

Sun Tzu has a problem driving tanks apparently.

	20-10-2003 17:55									#15
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I don't see Sun Tzu's as vital for a successful campaign, and although it might be fun to take Pharsalos and then try to hold it against a storm of Greek units, it isn't worth it for the short period of useful life it has. You can have Sun Tzu's with Feudalism, from Warrior Code and Monarchy, and it will last for almost all of the game. We're getting it so late on that it will not make as big an impact as it may have done had we built it earlier. Leo's has meant that our units get stronger in time too, but since we cannot go any further than cavalry then it'd be nice to have vet cavalry to finish the game with.
Sun Tzu is a luxury, rather than a necessity, at this stage of the game, and I'd much prefer to see us use an overwhelming concentration of force on cities than to have fewer units attacking more sparsely because we think Sun Tzu's will guarantee victory with fewer units.

	20-10-2003 23:25									#16
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The only way we get to tanks is if we bother to research all the intervening technologies. Therefore, Sun Tzu's ought to last the remainder of the game.

	20-10-2003 23:52									#17
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear We may be, ljcvetko. But Leo's and Sun's don't match up well. If you have one, the other is not as much use as when alone. Leo's tends to cancel the benefit of Sun's. I have to admit I have always had some difficulty making use of both together.

Actually I think they match up perfectly. Leo upgrades obsolete units which were worthless anyway being vets or not, while Sun Tzu makes those newly upgraded units vets again as soon as they kill barb leader for instance.

And one thing not applicable to this game but equally important otherwise: Naval units become vets too.

	21-10-2003 06:40									#18
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While I would still like to see us bribe Pharsalos, it seems general wisdom is against this. Therefore, can we at least explore the areas near Pharsalos, so that we know how defensible this area to be? (or how many Greek cities are nearby which would try to send units to take it back from us, since so many of you have so little faith in our armies )

* Sparrowhawk