18-10-2003 23:57									#1
	Sending the save on... Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Given that Mongoose is having trouble obtaining the old save from GWT and it may take several days to iron that out AND given that we're likely to win this war against GCA anyhow and I'd like it on record that we beat GCA's sorry potentially cheatin' @ss regardless, I think we should send on the save already.

Other teams are already starting to grow restless as to why Apolyton has held the save this long. When I wanted us to hold the save, I asked the consuls only for 24 hours as an opportunity to take our case to Mongoose.

I can understand the concern that once we send on this save, the probability of getting our lost units back (that were likely lost unfairly) plumets, but we're going to win this war regardless and given how much CFC has likely already lost, it gives us better grounds upon which to argue that we have lost from this as well and thus we feel no need to overly compensate people for losses to potential cheating, just penalize the cheaters and make sure it doesn't happen again.

As it currently stands, we really need to make a choice. Either pass on the save, or be honest with the other teams about the reason we're still holding it. Because CGN, at least, is already growing suspicious regarding why we might hold the save so long and I'm sure they're not alone.

So which is it? Pass the save while continuing to investigat the potential cheating or give at least SOME excuse for why we continue to hold it?

	18-10-2003 23:59									#2
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I'd pass the save on.

	19-10-2003 00:52									#3
	Put an end to popups!

Correct me if I am wrong:

The odds that GCA was able to achieve the performance that they did *simply* from altering the order of unit actions are truly astronomical.

If that's the case, pass the save on.

	19-10-2003 01:05									#4
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Why are we keeping silent on the reason that we're holding on the save? Do we believe that we're wrong in accusing GCA of cheating? Why are we trying to protect their reputation by keeping this matter private?

We should be honest with the other teams who are also playing this game WITH a team that we have good reason to believe is cheating. If GCA is cheating it is not only our problem, it's everyone's problem. All of the teams should be involved in this very serious issue.

We should say that we have strong evidence that leads us to believe that GCA is reloading and replaying the save and that we are holding the save while we wait on Mongoose to investigate the incident.

We need to stress that this is very serious. We all took an oath. None of us want to believe that anyone would cheat in this game, but the evidence we have cannot and will not be ignored.

We also should ask the other teams what should be done IF this is found to be true. If Mongoose investigates and finds that there is no cheating, we keep playing, but if he finds compelling evidence of cheating, then something must be done.

Bottom line: Let's go to the UN *now* about this issue and get the discussion going.

--Togas

	19-10-2003 01:17									#5
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Should we ask Mongoose for guidance on whether to go public?

	19-10-2003 01:20									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus The odds that GCA was able to achieve the performance that they did *simply* from altering the order of unit actions are truly astronomical.

True, but cheaters have other options at hand. As explained in the probabilities thread, you can change the outcome of battles by executing some orders, such as beginning wonder builds.
Technically, it is possible for a cheater to achieve any outcome he desires, if he is patient enough.

	19-10-2003 01:28									#7
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Let's Play


we need to make sure that CFC is going to Investigate Algalord again this turn


E_T

	19-10-2003 01:30									#8
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I believe that we should not let out a word about cheating until we have official confirmation.
If this comes as a surprise to the ISDG community, then we'll have a good chance to pass pretty much any reasonable motion that we'd like against GCA.

quote: Originally posted by Togas We also should ask the other teams what should be done IF this is found to be true. If Mongoose investigates and finds that there is no cheating, we keep playing, but if he finds compelling evidence of cheating, then something must be done.

I disagree.
IMHO, the decision is ours and CFC's. Once GCA are officially declared cheaters, then its up to those who were damaged by GCA's doings to decide what will come of them.
I'd like to contact CFC immediately once this matter comes out and form a joint committee to decide on what we expect to get from GCA, how we'd like to divide their empire should they be removed from the game, whether we should demand an official apology etc'.

	19-10-2003 02:32									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber True, but cheaters have other options at hand. As explained in the probabilities thread, you can change the outcome of battles by executing some orders, such as beginning wonder builds. Technically, it is possible for a cheater to achieve any outcome he desires, if he is patient enough.

My point is that Mongoose will not be able to replicate their results.

	19-10-2003 02:59									#10
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I suggest we do NOT pass the save on.

mongoose will be able to see if things are fishy. I would rather wait for him to check it out.

I recommend we tell the other teams that an 'issue' has arisen, and is being looked into. We apologize for the delay. We will keep them informed.

Leave it at that. Until we hear back from mongoose.

	19-10-2003 03:00									#11
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Oh, my mistake.
P.S. I completely agree with the last statement in your sig.

	19-10-2003 03:08									#12
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I agree with Beta wholeheartedly!

But, I see no reason not to bring up our suspicions. Our suspicions are not based on GCA's character, but on the percentages of the likely outcomes of all the battles we have had with them. The numbers are the reasons for our suspecions, and nothing else. If it is proved that GCA was just miraculously lucky, then we move on.

	19-10-2003 03:43									#13
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If Bigfree and Fried agree, you know something's wrong. :P

I agree with Bigfree and Beta. DO NOT send the save. We do not want anything else obscuring this issue until it is resolved. Besides, if Mongoose decides they DID cheat, we may end up starting the game over from this turn again anyhow with GCA's cities under our control or something.

The other teams can bloody well learn patience, and if they press hard enough, tell 'em why. :P