19-10-2003 03:09									#1
	Should we send the save or not? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

We've been holding up the save because a few people (i.e. consuls) feel we should wait until Mongoose responds us with the GCA cheating accusations. He is waiting for a response from GWT to play GCA's save, however, since GWT has a nasty habit of not responding on time we have no clue when we will get that info and we might well be holding this save for no really good reason for another 24-48-72... hours.

I feel we should send it. GCA will eventually be punished if they are proven to have cheated. If not, then we held the save for no reason at all.

So, do you agree with sending it ASAP?



EDIT: Doh, forgot to add a poll. Just post yes or no.

	19-10-2003 03:10									#2
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Send it.

	19-10-2003 03:13									#3
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No. Do NOT send it.

By not sending it, it makes it clear that we see this as a significant issue. Otherwise, it looks like "play on, and by the way, we think these guys are cheating, and mongoose is looking into it". To me, the issue is big enough to halt play and be investigated.

	19-10-2003 03:21									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Beta No. Do NOT send it. By not sending it, it makes it clear that we see this as a significant issue. Otherwise, it looks like "play on, and by the way, we think these guys are cheating, and mongoose is looking into it". To me, the issue is big enough to halt play and be investigated.

The problem is if we start whining and *****ing about it right now when there's no official answer, we're be looking like sore losers. If we do raise a racket, let it be done WITH mongoose's approval (i.e. him saying that in fact GCA did cheat) or simply once GCA is destroyed we start an official public investigation involving all teams.

	19-10-2003 03:26									#5
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Yes

	19-10-2003 03:29									#6
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Pouring fuel on the fire...

I say yes, send it, and yes, let's go public NOW.

The odds are just too extreme, and we are thus perfectly justified in voicing our suspicion. This should of course be communicated *extremely* diplomatically, but it should be communicated.

	19-10-2003 03:37									#7
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No, DO NOT SEND THE SAVE!!!

AND go public. What are we afraid of? Did we manufacture the numbers? Or did we see something fishy and ran the numbers and would like some explanation?

	19-10-2003 03:40									#8
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Do NOT send the save. When you accuse someone of cheating - which we are - you freeze the situation until it is resolved. You don't want additional data or situations muddying the waters.

We're holding the save for a very good reason. Sending it only gives GCA a chance to "play fair" next turn and try and make things look a little less unlikely. Screw that. The other teams can wait, it's not as though we're pulling a Firaxis or something. We have a very good reason, and the moderator of the game knows about it.

As for going public... that's a whole different kettle of fish.

	19-10-2003 03:46									#9
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We are working on a possible solution to this in Chat, more later...


E_T

	19-10-2003 03:52									#10
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You're all welcome to join.

	19-10-2003 04:32									#11
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Whether or not we send on the save is why I asked the question when I started the other thread. I believe there are merits either way.

As for going public, I am absolutely and completely opposed to going public yet. As convincing of a case as I believe the current evidence provides, I REALLY want to have the additional evidence that can be provided by Mongoose looking at their save before going public.

Think of it as analogous to a prosecuting attorney choosing not to go public until even ALL potential doubts, reasonable or otherwise, can be dispelled. I don't just want the probabilities, I want proof if we can get our hands on it.

If we go public once we have actual proof, there will be little room for a debate between teams about whether GCA cheated, the issue will be moot... it'll simply be accepted that they did.

Until we've made the decision to NAIL them with every gun we have, we don't go pubilc prematurely.

	19-10-2003 04:52									#12
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I am not saying to go public and say: "GCA cheated!"

I am saying we say: "Things don't look right with the outcome of the last turn. We have asked for a fair and impartial investigation of this."

	19-10-2003 06:07									#13
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no, don't send.

	19-10-2003 06:16									#14
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I am not saying to go public and say: "GCA cheated!" I am saying we say: "Things don't look right with the outcome of the last turn. We have asked for a fair and impartial investigation of this."

BF, that's the exact same thing. It's obvious other teams will know what we are up to.

	19-10-2003 06:17									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Whether or not we send on the save is why I asked the question when I started the other thread. I believe there are merits either way. As for going public, I am absolutely and completely opposed to going public yet. As convincing of a case as I believe the current evidence provides, I REALLY want to have the additional evidence that can be provided by Mongoose looking at their save before going public. Think of it as analogous to a prosecuting attorney choosing not to go public until even ALL potential doubts, reasonable or otherwise, can be dispelled. I don't just want the probabilities, I want proof if we can get our hands on it. If we go public once we have actual proof, there will be little room for a debate between teams about whether GCA cheated, the issue will be moot... it'll simply be accepted that they did. Until we've made the decision to NAIL them with every gun we have, we don't go pubilc prematurely.

I concur. Do not go public. But also, do not send the save on. Having read the chat with mongoose, it looks like the course of action. In which case ...

Now - back to the 'Italian Job'.

	19-10-2003 08:06									#16
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My vote is do whatever Mongoose asks us to do in this regard. If he says send it on, then go ahead, if he says hold it, then hold it. If he hasn't said, then hold it and ask what he wants us to do.

	19-10-2003 19:03									#17
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I agree that is better to be completely sure before going public. I am sure that they are cheating, but I am not sure that it can be proved, so it's better not to put ourselves in evidence.

	19-10-2003 19:56									#18
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quote: Originally posted by wervdon My vote is do whatever Mongoose asks us to do in this regard. If he says send it on, then go ahead, if he says hold it, then hold it. If he hasn't said, then hold it and ask what he wants us to do.

I agree.

	21-10-2003 05:07									#19
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At present we are following up on ways of testing for cheating - so far it seems that, from the GCA save that mongoose has received, a logical battle order led to the same losses as we have suffered at Algalord. There is still the idea that GCA tampered with the save once they received it and sent THAT to mongoose. So, he is waiting on the save from GWT (that got sent to GCA and is thus untampered with) to check this. Once this avenue is tested we will have (assuming nothing else crops up) exhausted our options and must accept the evidence before us: that it was incredible luck, and we must just fight on until their luck runs out (which it inevitably will).

	21-10-2003 12:02									#20
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Their units will run out before their luck does.

	21-10-2003 12:30									#21
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Yes, they will BFM, yes they will!

mongoose let it slip that our war with GCA does not favor GCA in the slightest. I forget the exact words, but that was the meaning of them.

	22-10-2003 14:38									#22
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Ah isn't it great to know mongoose?

Ths ship of state is the only ship that leaks from the top - that and the good ship ISDG.