20-10-2003 00:56									#31
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The actual program described how von braun adapted a V2 into a piolet controlled missile, which would have been suicide for the pilot.

It also described several different strategies, including bombers and direct missile attack. They opted for the dirty bomb, because they knew they could at least build it.

Thank God we blew the heart out of Germany, before they managed to build this.

	20-10-2003 01:11									#32
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How can anyone be shocked about these plans when the "good guys" actually destroyed 2 cities with the a-bomb?

	20-10-2003 02:47									#33
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I'm wondering about the whole 'dirty bomb' bit and how real these 'plans' were. Isn't it true that prior to studies in Japan after the war that the effects on populations were largely unknown or guess work?

I believe that the Nazis were trying to develop weapons to be able to hit the US. That is not news to me. I have to wonder about the choice of war heads being reported though, since that sounds like it required knowledge gleaned only after the fact.

	20-10-2003 02:53									#34
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We'd all be speaking German now.

	20-10-2003 02:54									#35
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Not really, Berlin would be glass more likely.

	20-10-2003 02:57									#36
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My name shall be Meier if any Anglo-American bomber will ever be seen above Berlin.

	20-10-2003 02:58									#37
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(the joke was in me already being a German speaker)

	20-10-2003 03:01									#38
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quote: The Nazis had a policy of not using gchemical or biological weapons on allied cities because they knew the Allies controlled the skies and they were afraid of the Allied counter attack. I can only guess this would apply to radiological weapons as well

The Germans did not Use Chemical Weapons despite havin' stockpiled plenty of them (they continued Production throughout the War).
The Reason for this is disputed.
Some Historians claim that Hitler was misinformed about Allied capabilities to Counter-strike with Chemical weapons.
Others Claim that Hitler, who was wounded in a Gas-Attack in The Great War (aka WWI) back-frightened (?) from it.


Regarding Bacteriogical Weapons I only found that Hitler was bacteriophob (sp?).
Sourcegerman) http://www.ifsh.de/dokumente/artike...iowaffenndr.doc

	20-10-2003 03:01									#39
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Oh. HAR HAR HAR!

	20-10-2003 03:01									#40
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Crosspost

	20-10-2003 03:02									#41
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Ja.

	20-10-2003 03:03									#42
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oh shut up nye. you're just boring.

	20-10-2003 03:04									#43
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Hey bud, I don't have to give a road map out with my jokes.

	20-10-2003 03:07									#44
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For the whole Glas thing you need Sand.

	20-10-2003 05:35									#45
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I thought it was funny, Ecth. Sort of...

	20-10-2003 07:17									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Ah, the luxury of peace is being able to nitpick previous generations to death from the quietude of a home, apartment, or dorm room.

Well I don't want to start a fight or derail the thread or anything, but I always defend myself.

Thinking its wrong to bomb civilians purposefully, killing women and children in fire and explosions, is hardly "nitpicking to death." I'd call it a very basic, easy to see idea of right and wrong. Its way too big a thing to be described as a nitpick.

Also, being in the "quietude of a home" does not make me feel put in my place like you intended (I'm quite fine with myself). Feeling threatened does not make killing people in masses acceptable.

So I think you missed the mark on both counts, pretty widely.

	20-10-2003 07:37									#47
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I have a hard time believing that these plans were anything more than pipedreams. Yes it may have been considered by the military but its actual application probably got no further than Hitler saying, lets bomb New York, and some of his generals saying, are yes we have this super-duper plane that might be able to reach New York unencumbered.

I doubt that nuclear or dirty weapons even entered the equation.

	20-10-2003 07:46									#48
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quote: Not very related to the topic, but it keeps amazing me how advanced Nazis were.. I'm glad they were stopped, I wonder what would have happened if they would have lasted let's say few years more.

Agreed.

I used to watch all the Hitler Channel specials (for example, Science and the Swastika miniseries :vomit: ), but I don't watch so many now. Are they still keeping up the good old 3 parts Nazi programming to 1 part history programming ratio?

	20-10-2003 11:00									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove The B29 was already in production, so why would they have had to wait? The B29 could have reached N.Y. from Germany, and it's maximum altitude exceeded that of most fighters. Such a flight would have beem one way of course, and you also have to consider that bombing from >30,000 feet even for American bombers was rather inaccurate. Even Hitler might have had the sanity to understand that the benefit from such a practice was far outweighed by its cost.

IIRC, the B52 has a range of 8500 miles. This puts New York in range of bombers from Germany that could return to Germany. I don't think Hitler was stupid enough to have his bombers do one way missions unless the payload were nuclear.

One of the bombers the Germans and prototyped was an early version of the US B2 bomber. I think that bomber was the "America" bomber. The only question is whether it could fly to New York and back.

	20-10-2003 11:25									#50
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quote: Originally posted by nato Thinking its wrong to bomb civilians purposefully, killing women and children in fire and explosions, is hardly "nitpicking to death." I'd call it a very basic, easy to see idea of right and wrong. Its way too big a thing to be described as a nitpick. Also, being in the "quietude of a home" does not make me feel put in my place like you intended (I'm quite fine with myself). Feeling threatened does not make killing people in masses acceptable. So I think you missed the mark on both counts, pretty widely.

So sayeth the person who's nearly 60 years past the shadows cast by Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

What it comes down to is this: Go on, criticize the Allies, et al., all you want. No one's saying you can't. But when you do so, try to put yourself in the shoes of those who were fighting, of those who had been conquered and lived beneath the heel of their victors.

It's *always* easier to look back on something with 20/20 vision and say, "Well, they shouldn't have done that," or, "Well, they should have done that." I'm not advocating that the past not be examined with a fine-toothed comb, but I am advocating that if you're going to do so, then do so with the proper perspective — basically, put yourself in the shoes of the men and women of that time. Sure, they did some thing that, to *us,* are barbaric, with our post-war peacetime modern sensibilities. But they didn't have the luxury of being nice or always civilized. They were fighting a war that, frankly, they didn't know they were going to win.

And that's another thing. War sucks. War blows civility away. That's why it's called war. I have yet to know of a "civilized" war.

Am I the only one who thinks this way?

	20-10-2003 12:48									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper Ah, the luxury of peace is being able to nitpick previous generations to death from the quietude of a home, apartment, or dorm room.

	20-10-2003 12:55									#52
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dp

Last edited by Sprayber on 20-10-2003 at 13:04

	20-10-2003 14:27									#53
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The B29 didn't have the range for a round trip from the continental USA to Germany, that's why the B36 was built.

The German atomic program producing enough material for a dirty bomb of unknown effect? There were a lot of theories floating about amongst the scientists at the time but this is something someone wrote on the back of a cigarette packet one wet afternoon.

The Germans were the only ones with organo-phosphate nerve gas - Sarin, Soman and Tabun - but never used it because they thought the British also had it and there was no known defence or antidote.

There were a lot of advanced aircraft designs being drawn up during the last couple of years of the war in Germany - but most never got further than outline specifications on paper. The stealth bomber did fly and is now in a US museum.

Sounds like an imaginative TV programme, imaginative being the key word.

	20-10-2003 16:26									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper And that's another thing. War sucks. War blows civility away. That's why it's called war. I have yet to know of a "civilized" war. Am I the only one who thinks this way?

Absolutely not.
There is a reason why I have yet to support a war.

And besides, I don't think Nato disagrees with you too. He just stated it was hypocrite to call the plan of bombing NY "diabolical". Bombing NY would have been no more diabolical than bombing Dresden or bombing Tokyo, don't you agree ?

	20-10-2003 17:21									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Ned One of the bombers the Germans and prototyped was an early version of the US B2 bomber. I think that bomber was the "America" bomber. The only question is whether it could fly to New York and back.

You mean it was a flying wing style airplane. I don't think it was a prototype of the B2 because the Germans had yet to get a clue about radar absorbant materials or fly-by-wire computers.
The US built a flying wing jet bomber in the 1950s too, but discarded the idea because it was too unstable. The flying wing design became feasible when computers capable of keeping them stable were developed. Had the nazis gone ahead with building their flying wing they would have polluted the mid Atlantic area.

	20-10-2003 18:17									#56
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I have actually seen some original footage of the german "flying wing" wobbling around a clearing somewhere in early 1945. It was flying, was very unstable and wasn't going to make it across the English Channel, let alone the Atlantic. Interestingly the glue they used to hold it together (it was largely made of wood) actually had radar absorbing properties, probably unintentionally.

	20-10-2003 18:42									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion We'd all be speaking German now.

	20-10-2003 19:45									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion We'd all be speaking German now.

	20-10-2003 23:13									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor ... And besides, I don't think Nato disagrees with you too. He just stated it was hypocrite to call the plan of bombing NY "diabolical". Bombing NY would have been no more diabolical than bombing Dresden or bombing Tokyo, don't you agree ?

It's probably best to let nato answer for himself, but it appeared he was just responding to my post in particular, not the overall thread concerns of the use of the word "diabolical" when it comes to the possible bombardment of NYC in World War II. I know I wasn't thinking of that when I posted — probably 'cause I figured it was just The History Channel's way of generating attention (it worked, judging from this thread).

Anyway, all said and done, the bombing of civilian targets isn't something to be lauded. From what I understand, this practice really got going in WW II. It doesn't help that some leaders enjoy putting military units and whatnot in civilian areas of cities.

Damn humans! Always playing dirty!

Gatekeeper

	20-10-2003 23:21									#60
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I think I heard something on the History Channel about the Germans building long Range bombers that could fly all the way to the United States. They also said if the Germans got a atom bomb that they would have nuked NYC to end the war with the US.