19-10-2003 23:59									#1
	Doctors are idiots Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm on the web trying to figure out my knee injury. I saw an ortho guy in Richmond and was UNDERimpressed.

Funny reading stuff on the web. There are very common conditions that can be mistaken for each other. And seems like a lot of laxity in terms of wanting to do specific testing to distinguish conditions. There is even a very common ailment (related to the ITB) that has been around since time immemorial and that was not understood in terms of cause until 1975!! WTF? And lots of the treatements do not treat causes specifically. Nor is there testing to determine the actual mechanical progress of the healing or change in anatomy that the treatment is supposed to cause.

These guys are dopes. I feel like I have to figure it out all myself. I have to micromanage it.

	20-10-2003 00:04									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

That's why a sawbones goes to school so long, Squidy.
So they won't be idiots, and can decipher the problem.
Holyshit. I'm standing up for the sawbones??

	20-10-2003 00:06									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The uneducated masses who think they know more than real doctors are the real idiots

	20-10-2003 00:08									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

what did you do to your knee?

were you doing it with one leg propped up on the bed and then you used too much lube and so your foot slipped off the bed and then you hit your knee on the bedpost?

	20-10-2003 00:09									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

They aren't that good, Sloww. The guy I saw in Richmond told me, "You probably think you have a 'bursa', but it is most likely a 'plica'. I had arthrospic surgery on my knee cause I thought it was a bursa and it turned out to be a plica."

Now, I go home and think about this:

1. This guy messed up the diagnosis and did an unnescesary invasion surgery of his OWN knee.

2. If the two conditions are so easily confused, how does he know that I DON'T have the bursa? I mean how are they distinguished? Just cause he guessed wrong on the last, he's going to change his guess on mine?

---------------

Where is the science? The logic?

	20-10-2003 00:10									#6
	Tired of ads?

That's true Ming.

...but you also have to worry about the doctor's that think they know everything...

	20-10-2003 00:10									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Ming The uneducated masses who think they know more than real doctors are the real idiots

Well how does that affect me?

It's not an issue of knowing more. It's an issue of the them knowing enough. It's not even just an issue of them knowing stuff, but of following a path of deductive reasoning.

And I don't have to know more than them, to be able to see flaws in their knowledge/process. A manager doesn't need to understand every bit of a subordinates job to do common-sense questions and analysis of efficacy.

	20-10-2003 00:11									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker what did you do to your knee? were you doing it with one leg propped up on the bed and then you used too much lube and so your foot slipped off the bed and then you hit your knee on the bedpost?

I aggravated it running/hiking and it just won't get better.

	20-10-2003 00:14									#9
	Suffering from ads?

"The guy I saw in Richmond told me, "You probably think you have a 'bursa', but it is most likely a 'plica'. I had arthrospic surgery on my knee cause I thought it was a bursa and it turned out to be a plica.""

So the idiot is...?
Not the sawbones in Richmond.

	20-10-2003 00:15									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Dude, here is the best advice I can give which is MONEY

Go STRAIGHT to a sports medicine doctors

they are PROS, don't even waste your time with knee specialists

	20-10-2003 00:16									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by TCO They aren't that good, Sloww. The guy I saw in Richmond told me, "You probably think you have a 'bursa'

Well there you go. I got told I probably had the same thing just this Friday.

We need a knackered knee club.

	20-10-2003 00:17									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Dude, here is the best advice I can give which is MONEY Go STRAIGHT to a sports medicine doctors they are PROS, don't even waste your time with knee specialists

Half of the regular orthos claim to be sports medecine. I guess I need to go back to Steadman Hawkins but they freaked me out when they were looking at my shoulder. They are supposed to be the best though. (Kobe's doctor.) I might see who does the Redskins stuff in DC. Richmond is too much of a hick town.

	20-10-2003 00:18									#13
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Well there you go. I got told I probably had the same thing just this Friday. We need a knackered knee club.

I am on this website. http://www.rad.washington.edu/anatomy/nlknee1.html

	20-10-2003 00:21									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

yeah don't go to someone who is an ortho

you need a pure sports med doctor, like the ones you mentioned

a true sports med doctor won't discuss surgery unless it is a desparate last resort kinda thing

they should be able to fix you up through rehab only

the only time i've ever had to have surgery was when i ripped a muscle in half but every other injury i've had i've been able to fix myself through the guidance of a good sports med doctor

	20-10-2003 00:23									#15
	Got spare money?

well the Kobe style docs WANT to do surgery. And I would be hep with that. But I want them to actually understand what is going on. Do an MRI. Flowchart out the possibilities and do diagnostics.

	20-10-2003 00:25									#16
	Got spare money?

why is it so hard to get an MRI?

docs are always resistant to doing it for some reason....

	20-10-2003 00:31									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker why is it so hard to get an MRI? docs are always resistant to doing it for some reason....

probably $. But it seems to make a lot of sense to me. I mean get a frigging picture. And when it does come in they don't even look at it that close. I want those images scoured. My best viewing of my shoulder MRI was by a PT, not a doc. I mean, I guess the radiologist did an ok job and he wrote up a report. But the doc didn't even read the radiologists report until I was in the room and he scanned it and missed parts of it. Nor did he go look at the images to see how they matched what was written.

I am very pro-MRI.

I suspect another problem may be that the docs don't actually understand the anatomy. I mean that stuff is complex. There are aspects of the anatomy of the shoulder that weren't understood until a few years ago. Which is mind-boggling to me. I mean, heck, aren't they supposed to chop up corpses? Don't they look at what they are cutting on when doing surgery?

	20-10-2003 00:32									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

so is your shoulder still busted up?

	20-10-2003 00:36									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

yeah. That is another thing.

But right now, I'm just working on the knee. If I get that back so that I can run and cycle, that will do a lot. Still need to get shoulder fixed too.

Of course, the one thing I could do is lose 40 pounds. I could do that regardless of being able to exercise. Just need some discipline.

	20-10-2003 00:39									#20
	Tired of ads?

yeah lose some weight ya fat bastard. its not the doctors fault if your legs won't support your weight.

	20-10-2003 00:40									#21
	Suffering from ads?

YOU need to lose 40 pounds? you looked real in shape when i saw you

but i guess that makes sense if you have knee problems

well, if your shoulder has soft tissue damage, i had my shoudler CURED through a technique called Active Release Technique

It's all soft tissue manipulation, no surgery worked wonders. fixed my shoulder after 4 years of being damaged. it is even better than the shoulder that i never injured. lots of bodybuilders get it done

they might be able to do something for your knee

give it a shot at least

http://www.activerelease.com/

	20-10-2003 00:43									#22
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

maybe so...they ought to diagnose THAT then. How is your back?

	20-10-2003 00:45									#23
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker YOU need to lose 40 pounds? you looked real in shape when i saw you but i guess that makes sense if you have knee problems well, if your shoulder has soft tissue damage, i had my shoudler CURED through a technique called Active Release Technique It's all soft tissue manipulation, no surgery worked wonders. fixed my shoulder after 4 years of being damaged. it is even better than the shoulder that i never injured. lots of bodybuilders get it done they might be able to do something for your knee give it a shot at least http://www.activerelease.com/

40 is right. I may check out the ART, but first I want to do some research in anatomy.

	20-10-2003 00:46									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

my back is pretty good. in the last two seasons i've done both ankles and both knees so haven't got much skiing in.
my plan is to take it easy this year.

	20-10-2003 00:48									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

First of all, of course you have a bursa. I have a bursa, Ming has a bursa, my eight year old boy has a bursa, even my dog has a bursa. A bursa is a lubricant fille sac situated between a joint and adjacent tendons. It's function is to reduce the friction of the mobile tendons where they pass over bones. What you're probably referring to is bursitis, a condition in which a bursa becomes inflamed.

It's not clear to me from your post exactly what happened. What I think you've said is that you though, or were told, that you had bursitis, but when you went to an orthopedist he did an arthroscopy and discovered that you had a "plica", which is a sort of tissue projecting into the joint often interfering with motion in the joint. If that is the case, then arthroscopy was just the right thing for you, since using the arthroscope a skilled surgeon can insert an instrument into the joint and clip away the aberrant tissue alleviating the problem. An MRI would supply a diagnosis, but surgery might still have been necessary. Some orthopedists prefer arthroscopy because they often can alleviate the problem whike making the diagnosis.

	20-10-2003 00:50									#26
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Wow. Didn't know that. I think if I'd had my shoulders more in shape, I might not have gotten hurt. I think I also needed to improve my skiing. I was skiing those really fast GS style turns when I got hurt (wasn't turning right then but you know what I mean). I don't think I did it on purpose, but I think unconsciously I was emulating how you ski a blue-black. I guess I figure I can go that fast cause there are no moguls and I feel in control. But I wasn't really. Sort of a subtle thing. When I'm on the moguls, I KNOW I'm not in control. LOL

Too bad, you didn't get to play pool with Paula at Salt Creek. We played on the last day that we were there and she kicked butt. You guys would be a strong team.

	20-10-2003 00:55									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove First of all, of course you have a bursa. I have a bursa, Ming has a bursa, my eight year old boy has a bursa, even my dog has a bursa. A bursa is a lubricant fille sac situated between a joint and adjacent tendons. It's function is to reduce the friction of the mobile tendons where they pass over bones. What you're probably referring to is bursitis, a condition in which a bursa becomes inflamed. It's not clear to me from your post exactly what happened. What I think you've said is that you though, or were told, that you had bursitis, but when you went to an orthopedist he did an arthroscopy and discovered that you had a "plica", which is a sort of tissue projecting into the joint often interfering with motion in the joint. If that is the case, then arthroscopy was just the right thing for you, since using the arthroscope a skilled surgeon can insert an instrument into the joint and clip away the aberrant tissue alleviating the problem. An MRI would supply a diagnosis, but surgery might still have been necessary. Some orthopedists prefer arthroscopy because they often can alleviate the problem whike making the diagnosis.

Typical physician. No attention to detail. The doc had the surgery on HIMSELF. And since he misdiagnosed himself, he figures, I must be the same as him. And he does NOT want to do surgery on me. He wants to avoid it, since he feels that he did an incorrect procedure on himself. (had it done actually, he did not cut on himself.)

And yeah, I know I have a bursa. But that is how he referred to the condition. From now on, I am coming in with a complete description of the anatomy (referring often to the Medline dictionary to understand stuff) so that I can hope to follow and correct these guys. Umm and yes, I know that is not enough. I really need to have a course and do dissection and all that, but that will do me for a start.

	20-10-2003 01:06									#28
	Increase the size of your Attachments

hey hey doc strangelove is a good guy though he is trying to help player

	20-10-2003 01:09									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

sorry. Back to my article. I have to look up a word about every third or fourth word, but I am pushing through.

	20-10-2003 01:16									#30
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by TCO They aren't that good, Sloww. The guy I saw in Richmond told me, "You probably think you have a 'bursa', but it is most likely a 'plica'. I had arthrospic surgery on my knee cause I thought it was a bursa and it turned out to be a plica."

The problem is that this statement doesn't make sense. Arthroscopy isn't a treatment for simple bursitis, but it is for a "plica." Could you have gotten what he said backwards? Arthroscopy may be indicated when bursitis doesn't respond to the usual conservative treatment, raising the possibility that the bursitis might be secondary to a structural defect like a torn ACL, a torn meniscus or a "plica."