20-10-2003 05:37									#1
	We chatted with Mongoose today... Increase the size of your Attachments

Chat started in #isdgfamtalks when Mongoose joined the channel.

Here's the log of the part of the chat that occured in #isdgfamtalks:

quote: mongoose201> anyone around? BigFree> yo mongoose201> greetings BigFree> hey BigFree> make sure you do the notify thingy mongoose201> yeah, I just got here..I was in the process of it BigFree> we dont sometimes see the window falsh BigFree> ok BigFree> thanks BigFree> anything new mongoose201> well, I told MZ earlier, but GWT sent me the file the recieved instead of the file they sent... and I don't hold out much hope that I will be recieving the correct one anytime soon MZ[Cooking]> hey BigFree> damn mongoose201> hi BigFree> if you had their turn report, you could play theri turn MZ[Cooking]> I hope they will, I presume you've e-mailed them back BigFree> did GCA already send you their turn report? mongoose201> certainly mongoose201> I got the turn they sent on BigFree> Does GCA know what is going on? mongoose201> I don't think so, but there must be suspicion BigFree> Well, you will have to ask for their turn report BigFree> so you might as well do it now mongoose201> especially if they are guilty, they must know what is going on..if they are innocent Arnelos> well... if GCA *did* cheat, they're either cocky or quaking in their boots... if they didn't cheat, they wouldn't have a clue what's going on mongoose201> they may not Arnelos> crosspost mongoose201> exactly I would ask GCA now in the interst of time BigFree> that way when you get the turn form GWT you can go to work MZ[Cooking]> you mean ask GCA for their turn before playing? perhaps, with the excuse that he's gotten no word from GWT BigFree> no MZ[Cooking]> ask them what then? mongoose201> yes, very true, but it all hinges on GWT getting me the correct save, which they have shown no interest in doing at this point BigFree> ask GCA for their turn report so that mongoose can attempt to replay it BigFree> that has to be done regardless MZ[Cooking]> yep mongoose201> yes BigFree> Then GCA can start quaking in their proverbial boots! MZ[Cooking]> what I was saying is that if GWT fails to respond you can ask GCA for their received save (which is the same as GWT's played save) with the excuse that you need that file and GWT hasn't answered you with regards to it mongoose201> hehe... I did play GWT's turn through and then continue on to GCA's turn, but nothing can be determined from that, I just wanted to see their position BigFree> true, only that the turn that GCA may send mongoose may have been altered by GCA Arnelos> BF has a point mongoose201> ah, yes BigFree> We hope that a turn sent by GWT has not been altered MZ[Cooking]> that would mean GCA's cheating went more than just reloading BigFree> yes BigFree> but, you could check both files mongoose201> If I recieved both BigFree> that woud definately show altering the file if they ended idfferently BigFree> you should ask for both BigFree> why woul they refuse mongoose201> I don't know...why would the send me the obvious wrong file when I was clear on what I needed..why would they not respond to a single email mongoose201> We just don't know BigFree> true, but I was refering to GCA sending their turn to you mongoose201> ah, yes BigFree> GWT sending it is a given and a must mongoose201> Lucky is on msn, I will try to contact him now..he is listed as away BigFree> cool mongoose201> no, he has an auto response set...currently away BigFree> dang mongoose201> now he is? mongoose201> yep mongoose201> I think he may be quaking now...slow response BigFree> lol mongoose201> very slow response.... BigFree> 5:7(1 * MZ[Cooking] is now known as MasterZen BigFree> How old is Lucky? BigFree> I heard he was near 15 MasterZen> haha, I asked mongoose the exact same thing this morning BigFree> aqnd.... * Shiber has joined #ISDGFAMTalks mongoose201> got it Arnelos> got what? mongoose201> the save MasterZen> from GWT? mongoose201> no..from GCA mongoose201> lucky forwarded me the email he recieved from GWT MasterZen> well that's a start... BigFree> did you ask for their turn report? mongoose201> he told me as much as he could remember about the sequence of events..it may be enough BigFree> weird they dont have a specific turn log Arnelos> weird indeed mongoose201> I know that some of the teams play their turns in chat and decide what to do at the time..don't know if that is the case here Arnelos> what was the case when you last had to investigate GCA? mongoose201> CDG wanted me to view a turn mongoose201> wow BigFree> ? Shiber> What is it? mongoose201> you had 4 vet NM's? BigFree> and one reg I believe mongoose201> okay..after 4 attacks on the vet NM's, I have 1 retreated horseman and 3 GCA victories MasterZen> whaaaaaaaaaat? mongoose201> yeah BigFree> anything wierd in the attack order? mongoose201> nothing out of the ordinary..he told me their strategy of attack, and I went with it...also...attack on regular NM resulted in retreat mongoose201> so, now I am at the infantry MasterZen> exactly how much HP did they knock off the mercs? mongoose201> regular NM= 2/3.... veteran= 2/4 mongoose201> does that coincide with your numbers? Arnelos> yes Arnelos> exactly mongoose201> ok..I'll start working on the infantry and we'll see what happens BigFree> be back in a few minutes

	20-10-2003 05:38									#2
	Tired of ads?

Chat continued in #scarystory when OctavianX showed up in #isdgfamtalks:

quote: Arnelos> hey Arnelos> what now? MasterZen> told ya they'd come mongoose201> hehe MasterZen> we're just escaping from OctX Arnelos> ah Arnelos> sensible mongoose201> hehe..very mysterious * Arnelos is busy playing c3c... wasn't entirely paying attention MasterZen> ah I was playing a C3C game as the brits mongoose201> Arnelos..I know this is crazy, but this is legit...I played with the stragegy Lucky gave me and the same thing happened MasterZen> emperor, terribly crappy land but I think I'll pull it off mongoose201> I will play again when I recieve the turn from GWT Arnelos> mongoose... something we thought of earlier mongoose201> ? Arnelos> play their turn in other orders... switch up the units, switch up the build orders... see if you get the same results Arnelos> in terms of killing that many units mongoose201> ok Arnelos> it'll probably lead to similar results... but if there's anything that skews the RNG, that should shake it up mongoose201> ok * E_T has joined #scarystory E_T> make sure you make this room secret * MasterZen sets mode: +ps E_T> so, what;s the verdict? MasterZen> so far it's legit MasterZen> or at least appears so mongoose201> okay, I switched things up... I changed their build orders...started a Wonder in one city, and this time the attacks did slightly better... The Regular NM got down to 1/3 before the retreat mongoose201> other than that, the same Arnelos> hmm... E_T> what about offering peace and accepting? Arnelos> that's a run of INCREDIBLE luck.... E_T> it sometimes happens but it will balance out on them mongoose201> there was an offer on the table when I opened the turn...I cleared the table and exited Arnelos> and GCA has had similar runs of incredible luck before... * Kloreep has joined #scarystory Kloreep> Hi mongoose201> hello Arnelos> I'm willing to accept that things are legit, but is there anything else that could be doing this? Arnelos> either long-term or short-term? E_T> Well, mongoose now knows about the Wonder thing, so it will be something that he can look out for in the future * Trip has joined #scarystory mongoose201> you know more about the RNG factors than I do, I think...but I had no problems doing exactly as the turn you recieved showed up E_T> It was somthing that we had discovered by accident E_T> the person who writes up our detailed after turn report had found ig E_T> *it mongoose201> I wish I could have attacks like that MasterZen> everyone does E_T> and after we had found out what the cause was, we then had tested it and found out what the trigger is mongoose201> I'll check GWT's save when I get it from them, of course, but until then, I have to consider this a legitimate play. What is the saying? "Fortune favors the bold?" well... it was pretty bold..but really looking at the file..they had no other choice than to attack in the way they did...horsemen defending do you no favors E_T> and so, evertime we now open the save, we just say o.k. to the default builds that come up when you first load up the save E_T> and That is a bug that we haven't reported, for obvious reasons mongoose201> sure E_T> because you can't say if someone is using it or not E_T> but, if and when we start a new game, this will have to be stipulated in the rules of conduct Trip> tsk tsk Trip> 1 in 4700 E_T> It happens, trip Trip> clearly Arnelos> at this point... unless we can find a way that GCA may have altered the game file itself to rig the RNG, we must accept that these are potentially legitimate results... should we move the game forward? E_T> Hey, I wouldn't have thought that we would get that Army with just 1 MI, but we did. It also happens E_T> I say yes Arnelos> getting the army with 1 MI was a 37% chance... not too shabby Trip> we have to Trip> there's no other choice E_T> lets get this game back on track E_T> Mongoose will likely keep a closer eye out for what happens mongoose201> The ball is in your court...Sorry I couldn't give you the news you wanted Arnelos> Mongoose - it's not necessarily the news we wanted mongoose201> yes...and don't hesitate to tell me your concerns Arnelos> I'd FAR rather that GCA was not cheating MasterZen> it's not news we wanted, it's simply something we felt had to be cleared E_T> Well, actually it's news that we were possibly expecting mongoose201> yeah MasterZen> if GCA did not cheat then lucky them, the war shall g o on MasterZen> we will do as best we can E_T> if there was exidence of blatant cheating, then the game would likely have been a wash mongoose201> I think your position in the conflict is well established mongoose201> E_T> there was a lot of sentiment that if there was evidence of them blatantly cheating, then our team would likely have left the game Arnelos> a few people Arnelos> the rest of us were intent to stay mongoose201> yes, and someone could have my damn job too..to hell with this crap..I would get more sleep E_T> and we don't know how the other teams would have responded, but they probibly wouldn't want to continue a tanted game, either mongoose201> well...more sleep until conquests arrives, anyway Arnelos> E_T> Sleep, is that what happens when I sit at my computer too long sometimes... mongoose201> but, unless it was one of the other minor changes I made..switching to a wonder in one city did affect that attacks...only in GCA'a favor E_T> Thank you agains Mongoose mongoose201> certainly Arnelos> yes, thank you again E_T> but the results were different than we had when we had open our save * BigFree has joined #scarystory mongoose201> shh..nobody say anything..BigFree will hear BigFree> :P E_T> Ah, I can't talk bad about him now mongoose201> well, I'm glad we got it out of the way before he showed up * E_T goes to open another channel for the revolt discussion BigFree> I still find it hard to belive that GCA did this legitimately E_T> Arnelos> BF - as do we all Arnelos> it's entirely possible that the save file itself was altered... but how can we prove it? mongoose201> I played it, and I have trouble...I wish I could send you guys the save to see...but obviously, I can't...perhaps then the game is over Kloreep> I don't see how they could alter it to affect battles on their next turn though mongoose201> true Arnelos> Kloreep - by changing the RNG table embeded in the save BigFree> yep BigFree> thats why getting the save that GWT sent is important BigFree> it helps to rule that out Kloreep> Arnelos: Yes, but with a war on the other continent, it would affect others as well mongoose201> that's what I was just typing BF Arnelos> Kloreep - maybe they change it back when they send the save on to the next team? Kloreep> Hmm... good point. Kloreep> I suppose it would technically be possible. Kloreep> I don't think even Gramphos knows where the seed is, though BigFree> I think he would BigFree> He is preety damn good E_T> well, as I said, it really shouldn't be too hard to find it, if your patient and have the right tools BigFree> persistence pays off even for cheating mongoose201> yes, that's the sad part, that someone would put so much into the game that they thought they had to go so far as to deny everyone else a fair game in that manner E_T> Well, I'm satisfied and I know enough to know what is possible BigFree> Can you tell uys the attack order Mongoose? mongoose201> hmmm... BigFree> I dont think that would alter anything BigFree> since it already happened E_T> If they are using some form of combat consol, there is know way of telling it, from what Mongoose has done mongoose201> well, I'm not sure how much I should say about their attacks... MasterZen> is it "logical"? mongoose201> yes, it is BigFree> Army, Horses, Swords. E_T> mongoose201> I'll check GWT's save when I get it from them, of course, but until then, I have to consider this a legitimate play. What is the saying? "Fortune favors the bold?" well... it was pretty bold..but really looking at the file..they had no other choice than to attack in the way they did...horsemen defending do you no favors mongoose201> yes, ET..that's a clue E_T> I was repeating it for BF mongoose201> I know E_T> BigFree> How did Lucky take our accussation? E_T> He didn't get with them, IIRC BigFree> yes, he did E_T> oh BigFree> he had to get the save and turn order mongoose201> he seemed suprised...but, it's hard to tell when your are talking on a computer... there were some long pauses.. He did seem suprised that it even came up mongoose201> hang on..I have it logged E_T> or shaking in his boots, but everyting appears to be on the up and up mongoose201> he was suprised that you knew he didn't lose any units...I don't think he was considering that you were defending with UU... I think he wanted you investigated for a moment BigFree> What also surprises me is that Lucky acts as if he KNOWS our GA has not started.... BigFree> because thats the only reason to attack the NM's first with Horses Kloreep> BF, it also gives the non-retreating swords a better chance Arnelos> elite horse retreats are still only 66% Arnelos> you attack with enough horses, you're bound to lose one Arnelos> unless you're GCA BigFree> LOL mongoose201> [17:33:19] Lucky: but not extremely lucky, 2vs3 is not that bad mongoose201> [17:33:36] Lucky: and it´s not like we have much choice mongoose201> [17:34:00] Lucky: defending with horses is just dumb, attacking and mongoose201> praying is much better mongoose201> [17:34:05] mongoose: no..no choice mongoose201> [17:34:08] * mongoose is now Busy mongoose201> [17:34:51] * mongoose is now Online mongoose201> [17:35:04] Lucky: I find it interesting that we the ones that have mongoose201> played very honorable so far, not breaking any treaty or mongoose201> such, are accused by those that backstab and betray LOL E_T> that Arnelos> mongoose201> I thought you might like that Arnelos> THAT, you see, is the reason I believe GCA would be tempted to cheat Arnelos> a belief that the dishonor in doing so had fallen BigFree> true Arnelos> because they are extremely bitter right now mongoose201> I would be bitter as well...as would you, I'm sure Arnelos> actually, I've suffered almost exactly what they are now Arnelos> go check out our PTWDG at Apolyton P mongoose201> hehe..me too..in PBEM's...backstabbing bastards! Arnelos> see, that's precisely the point MasterZen> bah you midget wuss :P Arnelos> it's part of the game * MasterZen was one of the cheif architects of said backstab... MasterZen> actually it wasn't technically a backstab Arnelos> which one, RP or GCA? Arnelos> in both cases, a treaty was violated... one an alliance, the other a NAP MasterZen> RP MasterZen> it wasn't really an alliance... MasterZen> it was an alliance IF a ND attacked either one of us Arnelos> you had a defensive alliance with us stating that you would decalre war on ND if they declared war on us or attacked us... last time I checked, ND's attack came before GoW was in-game at war with RP... therefore you renegged the agreement with us by not declaring war... you added salt to the wound by then attacking us yourselves BigFree> 4Its entirely possible that GCA and GWT conducts many different turns between themselves in order for the RNG to be at a certain spot so that GCA benefits. They could do massive amouonts of Diplomacy...that would be one way to alter the RNG before the turn has to be played by GCA MasterZen> 4BF dammit enough conspiracy theories!!!! Arnelos> BF - as I said in the other channel... that's too conspiratorial, even for me MasterZen> that is just beyond logic BigFree> not really mongoose201> well, I mentioned that before to..but my imagination runs wild..oh..one sec Arnelos> MZ - mind you, as I said at the time, I entirely respect GoW for backstabbing RP... that's just how the game is played. But it WAS a backstab BigFree> conspiracies are not just theories mongoose201> [17:01:10] mongoose: hehe...dude, I am sure you are curious as most mongoose201> are of the current delay mongoose201> [17:01:45] Lucky: well, annoyed would be more like it mongoose201> [17:02:07] Lucky: mongoose201> [17:02:37] mongoose: well, GWT has not been sending me the save file mongoose201> lately that they have been passing on, and I need to look mongoose201> at it. There has been a request for me to view it and I Arnelos> hmm.... Kloreep has a good point in the other channel... mongoose201> must honor the request.... mongoose201> [17:03:02] mongoose: GWT does not respond to emails and when they did mongoose201> send a file, it was the wrong one... mongoose201> [17:03:28] Lucky: hmm mongoose201> [17:03:48] Lucky: our contact and talks with them were rather quick mongoose201> and efficient mongoose201> [17:04:04] mongoose: can you send me the file that GWT sent mongoose201> you......haha..well, you speak German better than me! mongoose201> [17:04:13] Lucky: and friendly as well mongoose201> Quick and efficient@!!!! with GWT? MasterZen> BigFree> conspiracies are not just theories MasterZen> until they are proven, yes they are E_T> Let's not rehash stuff that was layed to rest a long time ago, in the PTWDG BigFree> thats whatt you attempt to do before you let one off the hook though Arnelos> 4Kloreep had something good in the other channel... the fact that GCA has *never*, to our knowledge, lost a unit on offense means taht they are still likely reloading the save... perhaps the fact that this is illegal should be noted MasterZen> unfortuantely there really isn't a way to prove it E_T> as far as we know, they haven't lost anything Arnelos> I don't think proving it is what we should do Arnelos> we obviously can't Arnelos> just a small reminder that the practice is illegal E_T> we just kick their ass and don't even bother to take names mongoose201> guys..I have to go..If you need anything else..email me BigFree> ok BigFree> thanks BigFree> keep a look out for GWT's save Kloreep> Thank you mongoose Arnelos> thanks Mongoose mongoose201> no problem...of course..I'll email them again if I don't get it tonight Arnelos> btw... Mongoose... mongoose201> ? E_T> Mongoose, I suggest, that in the future, when there is a war (or anything else that involves the RNG, like barbs and huts), that the teams send you a report of things that might have effected the RNG for later review Arnelos> the fact that GCA suspects the real reason for your inquiries is good... perhaps they'll be scared into playing straight for a few turns if they think we may be on to them... just a thought Arnelos> that may be the best we can hope for mongoose201> that would be nice...and good idea ET E_T> that is if they already aren't mongoose201> no, they are not E_T> They appear to me, atleast from what I have been lead to beleave up to this point, is a team that will take chances that most others won't even think about mongoose201> It may be difficult to talk teams into doing this in the middle of the game E_T> as Mongoose has said, Fortune favors the bold mongoose201> yes, apparently E_T> There will likely be a C3C game sometime soon mongoose201> I got the email from BETA E_T> so it's things like this that should be implemented in that mongoose201> I'm going to try and scare up some guys from 1bc to join * MasterZen has quit IRC (Quit: have to go, cya later) E_T> Kloreep> SPDG Chat starts in ~7 minutes, #civ3dem on Undernet E_T> Kloreep> Please please come so it can be an actual chat * mongoose201 has left #scarystory E_T> Mongoose, you are welcome to join that chat, just to see our current SPDG game in progress Arnelos> 4is someone posting a log of this chat and the one in isdgfamtalks? E_T> too late * E_T nominates Arnelos * E_T has left #scarystory

	20-10-2003 05:58									#3
	Put an end to popups!

Motherf*ck...

Audentes Fortuna Juvat, and all that.

Let's go wipe the floor with'em.

	20-10-2003 05:58									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Lets move forward now. We will play the turn in about an hour or so.

I would also like for Aeson to check the save as we had mongoose do, but we keep playing.

The only evidence we have is circumstantial at the moment. And that is strictly based on odds of events and nothing else as of yet. If things keep going along on this pattern for GCA, then the evidence will stack. If enough circumstantial evidence is gathered, I believe we can make a case for 'proving' that GCA reloaded with that circumstantial evidence. How much more do we need? I'm not sure. That will be up to the team to decide.

BTW, mongoose still needs to test out the save he gets directly from GWT and not from GCA.

	20-10-2003 06:51									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Sometimes its better to be lucky than good.

Nothing to do now but tighten the belt and prepare for a long battle.

	20-10-2003 09:25									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Sometimes its better to be lucky than good.

It's always better to be lucky than good.

You can practice to be good...not so with luck.


Dominae

	20-10-2003 10:04									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

I want Aeson to take a look at the save as well as gramphos. In the mean time, erverything else will move forward.

How do we approach mogoose with the request that the save be sent to a 3rd party? Will he have to get the UN's permission to do so?

	20-10-2003 10:46									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Well, looks like somewhat of a disappointment, but IMHO not an altogether negative experience.
I've seen many displays of remarkable cooperation, open debate and decision-making in the past few days. If we can channel that energy and brain power into other areas of the game, we're unstoppable.

Besides, Arnelos made a good point: we'd rather if GCA was just damn lucky and not cheating, because of the negative effect that this would cause to some people's morales.

To sum up, I guess we'll just have to lick the wounds from GCA's latest lucky attack and then BEAT THE CRAP OUT OF THEM!!

	20-10-2003 12:35									#9
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Well, I have to say I probably feel better now that it seems that GCA was really just incredibly lucky than if it was proven or "proven" they did cheat.

I do not believe they'd be stupid enough to meddle with the incoming save itself, since that's something that can be proven beyond ANY doubts, unlike reloading and modeling war orders.

Let's move on with the war. Lucky or not, they will fall to the mighty armies of Apolyton.

	20-10-2003 19:02									#10
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That's some incredible luck. When put together with luck in earlier turns, it's almost unbelieveable.

Talk about fighting an uphill battle! Fight the good fight, fellas! We'll win anyway.

-Arrian

	20-10-2003 19:18									#11
	Put an end to popups!

In short: do I understand correctly that it seems that GCA got lucky and did not meddle with the action orders? And that they couldn't have tampered with the save file itself, since otherwise, their results couldn't have been reproduced?

	20-10-2003 19:30									#12
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The final verdict is still out. Mongoose is still waiting for a copy of the save GWT sent to CGA (one comming from GWT as opposed to one that CGA got a hold of and might have tampered with the RNG somehow). Its a long shot, but still a possibility.

	21-10-2003 03:25									#13
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donegeal is correct. BFM: It's always possible for GCA to have tampered with the save and then sent that one to Mongoose.

	21-10-2003 04:45									#14
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Well, it is looking more like spectacular luck, and although a possibility, I really think it is unlikely GCA has tampered with the game in any way - imagine the time and effort that would require!

This can be seen as a good thing.... if just luck, we know that, with our production capacity, the luck will run out, and when it does we will bury them.

So, sally forth!

	21-10-2003 05:41									#15
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To check if the file has been tempered, one simple way is to compare the time of the GWT e-mail (received by GCA) and the time of the saved file included in the e-mail.

The time of the saved file, of course, should be earlier/same as the time of the e-mail.

	21-10-2003 12:04									#16
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree BFM: It's always possible for GCA to have tampered with the save and then sent that one to Mongoose.

Ah, I didn't understand that Mongoose's save came from GCA, not GWT. My bad.

	21-10-2003 12:18									#17
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Ah, I didn't understand that Mongoose's save came from GCA, not GWT. My bad.

BFM, theres one more wrinkle...

mongoose seems to think there's something weird going on between GWT and GCA, therefore, GWT could have manipulated the save as well. The conspiracy theories are running deep, I know, but I'm only trying to look at all possibilities.

	22-10-2003 14:32									#18
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Understandable, BF, but we so far only have any evidence of dodginess against GCA. Once the investigation into them is completed, we have nothing more to go on, and certainly nothing concreat against GWT. If there is nothing found from GWT's save, then we must drop the inquiry until such a time as we get new evidence.

	23-10-2003 00:04									#19
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Pls post it, when you get news on the GCA cheating subject.
It will be interesting to see what Mongoose concludes...

	23-10-2003 01:23									#20
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If we're going to investigate every possibility, we might as well consider this:
GCA could be cooperating with GWT. For instance, GWT sends GCA their saves and have given GCA their password. Now, instead of running the standard steps for altering the RNG with their save, GCA does that with GWT's save. Then they save, producing a legitimate-looking GCA save, and play their save, see if they like the results, and if not, scramble the random numbers some more with GWT's save and then producing another legitimate-looking GCA save. It's almost perfect - unless someone suspects collaboration between GWT and GCA, they can't even come close to solving the case, and GCA doesn't need to do any hacking with the save either.
We have no evidence that this is true, but if GCA's luck continues then I believe that we'd have no choice but to investigate this sad possibility as well.

	23-10-2003 01:31									#21
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Ummm... I just refuse to believe something as intricate as such a conspiracy would be possible in a game like this. It would take so many dishonest players that I simply cannot believe it would be possible.

	23-10-2003 01:52									#22
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Actually, it only takes two. One from GWT to hand over the saves and the password to GCA (while lying to his own team; unlikely, I know, but there are weasels out there), and one from GCA to play both saves.

I refuse to believe it as well, but if things go on like this we may have no other option but to investigate this possibility, as well as other nasty possibilities.

	23-10-2003 01:59									#23
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

GCA is going to die soon either way; there's only so much they can do to save themselves now. No amount of cheating is going to prevent us from wining. The Strength analysis of of GCA compared along side with our and CFC's indicate we are at least 233% more units than GCA (If unit strengths were equal, that is)