20-10-2003 08:22									#1
	Did World War 2 Humble Germany? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I get that impression that Germany has become humbled by its bad history, is that true or not?

	20-10-2003 08:24									#2
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more like neutered.

	20-10-2003 08:26									#3
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All of the Germans I know except one view being proud of their country as something to be ashamed of.

	20-10-2003 08:26									#4
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Neutered doesn't go far enough. "Sex-change operation" is more accurate.

	20-10-2003 08:28									#5
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Well, probably that plus being split for 50 years

	20-10-2003 08:33									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Trip All of the Germans I know except one view being proud of their country as something to be ashamed of.

i dont see why it should be that way.

	20-10-2003 08:34									#7
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yeah

duh

	20-10-2003 17:47									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Neutered doesn't go far enough. "Sex-change operation" is more accurate.

Exactly.

The Germans have very deeply changed since WW2. They have tried to open their society. Authority and Discipline are not German values anymore. The quick appropriation of the American lifestyle, and of as many English words as possible, also show that something tagged as "German" is somehow shameful.

Besides, what Trip said is true. The Germans are nothing like what they were 60 years ago, save for the work ethics.

But when arriving in power 5 years ago, Schröder has tried to decomplex the German population, by trying to have the Germans proud of their non-nazi achievements. The Germans seem to begin rediscovering that they have brought many good things to the world too. At last.

	20-10-2003 22:11									#9
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but is that really a good thing?

it could lead to a rise in nationalism.

	20-10-2003 22:22									#10
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so is german nationalism bad? how about american nationalism? what about nationalism in general?

	20-10-2003 22:49									#11
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It did. But did Vietnam humble USA?

	20-10-2003 22:57									#12
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No.

	20-10-2003 23:06									#13
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it did for a few years until reagon took office.

and yes german nationalism isn't as bad as american nationalism only because they don't have the military to back it up

	21-10-2003 02:50									#14
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Dissident:
I think it is a good think for two reasons:

1. The Germans don't deserve to live in a permanent guilt and weep. This country brought many great things to the world (impressive literature, science, philosophy, industry), and not only the most horrible deed of modernity. To acknowledge this heritage is to do it justice.
Besides, the guilt has gotten so much out of hand that it was frowned upon to merely state the allies weren't purely nice guys, or to dare criticize today's Israel or Jewish Community (several well known Germans were called "antisemite" -probably the worst insult for a German- because they dared do this). It is impossible to have a serious debate on many issues with that.

2. If the governments don't reinstill a feeling of national pride progressively, some chancer would do it brutally at the first political crisis. I think it is much better to have a reasonable German pride, than some revisionist horror claiming that Germany is always right, the exact opposite that what the Germans believed for the past 60 years

And no, I'm no friend with Schröder's gov

	21-10-2003 02:56									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor If the governments don't reinstill a feeling of national pride progressively, some chancer would do it brutally at the first political crisis. I think it is much better to have a reasonable German pride, than some revisionist horror claiming that Germany is always right, the exact opposite that what the Germans believed for the past 60 years

That's a good point.

	21-10-2003 03:16									#16
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Long Live Deutschland!!!

	21-10-2003 03:18									#17
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I don't think that they need to wallow in guilt. But I think different Euro nationalism has a strong ethnic component to it. It is not such a great thing.

	21-10-2003 03:27									#18
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Germans have witnessed the horrors nationalism can cause firsthand. The US and UK have not, and France still has her WWI-style arrogant nationalism.

	21-10-2003 03:35									#19
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Yeah, Brits are still nationalist flag-waving zealots.

	21-10-2003 03:41									#20
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I think to a lesser degree, the same situation has happened in the UK. Nationalism and being proud of your country is rarely considered a good thing. Britain may not have a facist history, but it does have an imperial one, which we all must run out and apply 21st century morals to, and feel such shame about.

	21-10-2003 03:48									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Trip All of the Germans I know except one view being proud of their country as something to be ashamed of.

I don´t see a problem with being proud of my country. However, the exact line "I´m proud to be a German" is quasi hijacked by Neonazi groups here, who imply a lot more with such statement. Therefore this line is hardly used by many Germans. OTOH some Germans are so "proffesionally" ashamed of the Nazi time that appears rather grotesque.

I think for many young people it is a natural reaction when they first learn more about the Nazi era to "be against it", and they often extend this view over Germany in general. AFAIK it has to do with a kind of fear (that someone could think you´re a Nazi if you don´t always go around and say that you´re not - even when nobody asked )
But most develop a more rational view about it sooner or later....

	21-10-2003 03:49									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Yeah, Brits are still nationalist flag-waving zealots.

They are, that is the main reason they will not adopt the Euro.

	21-10-2003 03:52									#23
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Odin,

You completely wrong, most brits live in fear of being seen waving a flag(metaphorically) .. Nationalism is equated wrongly to racism, and zenaphobia.

	21-10-2003 03:54									#24
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It is true the Brits seem to still really love all the decorum about their country.

BTW Odin, the French nationalism is more "3rd Republic" nationalism than "WW1 nationalism". The 3rd Republic was the one agressively spreading the specific French nationsalism that is still existing today, albeit in a much toned-down form.

	21-10-2003 03:58									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It is true the Brits seem to still really love all the decorum about their country. BTW Odin, the French nationalism is more "3rd Republic" nationalism than "WW1 nationalism". The 3rd Republic was the one agressively spreading the specific French nationsalism that is still existing today, albeit in a much toned-down form.

Thanks, Spiff, It was just that the crap the French wanted done to Germany after WW1 was what poped into my head.