21-10-2003 05:10									#1
	Letters to GS, Lego, Vox Increase Your PM Length

The following letter was sent to all members of Gathering Storm that OPD asked me to PM:

quote: (addressee), This message is being sent to a number of GS people that OPD told me might be good to PM this to. Despite our recent victory against GoW, the defenses of Pamplona are pitifully weak. If either ND or GoW has a force of their UU's available to storm the city, they will almost certainly succeed in doing so in the next several turns. As such, I plan to confront Legoland with the fact htat we know they have gunpowder and that if they intend to help us survive, the choice is now or never. The line I plan to feed them (which is unfortunately not far from the truth) is that if they do not provide us with gunpowder and saltpeter to help us survive in the next few turns, RP will likely lose Southern Bob, leaving GoW and ND with stacks of 30-40 UU's each and control of all of Bob. With such power, either or both could easily turn on Legoland, since GS does not pose a significant threat without their own source of saltpeter. If Legoland is interested in preventing such a scenario, we need gunpowder and saltpeter. I am hesitant to believe that Legoland will agree even to this line of reasoning. If they do, however, I suspect that conditions will be placed upon any gift of Gunpowder and Saltpeter regarding our ability to trade either of these on to Gathering Storm. In order to agree to such restrictions, by the terms of our treaty with Gathering Storm, I would need to seek approval from Gathering Storm. Furthermore, in order to induce Legoland into actually helping us, it may be necessary to give them some form of incentive. One incentive Legoland seems particularly interested in is incense from Gathering Storm, but also a long-term agreement to receive luxuries from RP Team, should we regain control of our lands. Any of these types of agreements require approval by Gathering Storm and, in the case of incense from you, your active participation (at least in that respect). As such, I'm going to *need* someone able to speak for Gathering Storm, at least in regard to approval RP treaties, available for chat tonight. I assume that any approval for GS' participation will have to come by a consultative decision by the members of Gathering Storm, but I'm hoping that you all can deputize someone to give RP approval to sign treaties with Legoland on a quick basis. In addition, this is my formal request that when Gathering Storm receives the save, to please HOLD IT to allow extra time for the Legolanders (who seem notorious for taking forever to make decisions) to make a decision and act on it, should they decide to act in our favor. Keep in mind that, whatever happens, our loyalty remains with a GS-RP alliance over the long term. We simply hope that our two nations are not alone (or need not be alone) in the goal of ensuring that GoW and ND are re-contained back into their cage. Thank You - Francisco Clemente, Duque de Madrid, Chief Ambassador of the Crown (Arnelos)

	21-10-2003 05:12									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The following letter was sent to every single member of the Legoland team:

quote: (addressee), (copy of message sent to ZargonX) Despite our victory this turn against some GoW riders, it is apparent that we cannot stand against the hordes. Between GS and RP, we simply do not have the forces to stop them from sweeping Southern Bob. Through the majority of the war, they have kept so many riders stacked together that we can only hope to wound some, most of which retreat. Only a few have we killed. From what we have heard and what we have seen, we suspect that GoW and ND possess UU's totalling more than 30 each, almost all of which are likely to survive the current war to claim all of Bob for their two civs. Should such an enormous force of UU's survive this war, it would be relatively easy for them to build fleets for the invasion of Legos and Stormia. Given that the GoW is dedicated to winning the game by force of arms, this is their goal, irregardless of what hollow claims they may make to other civilizations. Afterall, GoW was still officially allied to RP when they attacked. Should they see an opportunity to strike Stormia and Legos to win the game, they will not hesitate to do so. The same goes for ND and these two allies seem far closer to each other than RP and GS, or anyone to Lego. If Legoland is interested in preventing an ND/GoW victory over all of Bob, it is imperative that you act now or never. I am not waxing melodramatic when I say that RP could very well be wiped off of Bob in the next few turns, along with GS holdings in Southern Bob. Despite the small victories we have been afforded recently, the odds are simply too overwhelming. Once they bring their full army off healthy UUs to bear, the most we can hope to do is slow them down. There is one thing that might give us a chance to actually hold Southern Bob and that is gunpowder, which we are aware that you possess. Since we may not have a source of saltpeter already linked, it may be necessary (on a temporary basis) to provide that as well if you have it. Aside from the obvious benefit of preventing ND and GoW from claiming all of Bob with plenty of Riders and Ansar Warriors left over to invade other continents, if you are willing to substantially aid us, we can offer you future binding agreements to provide our luxuries to you when we regain our land as well as an offer from GS to provide you with incense (of which they have extra). I have spoken to GS about that and they seem willing to provide their incense to Legoland in return for RP having a fighting chance to itself. In terms of other conditions upon such an agreement, we can understand if you have certain concerns about whether gunpowder would be shared with GS, something which we are fully willing to negotiate with you. In short, our position is truly desperate and we're willing to take aid where we can get it, how we can get it. It may even be possible to get GS to agree to such an arrangement (I have begun discussing this with them). In terms of other issues, I have already told you what our goals in this war are and how I believe the interests of Lego, RP, Vox, and GS to contain ND and GoW while retaining the balance of power could all be achieved without imperiling Legoland's long-term interests. I have also laid out how the rest of the game could be played from that point and GS seems entirely open to this possibility, should we be able to sign a treaty to its effect. I believe it possible to sign such a treaty and to ensure that it is honored. So I would greatly appreciate it if I was able to discuss these matters with Legoland this evening in chat. I would also be highly appreciative if Legoland, when they do receive the save, HOLD the save until your consultative decision-making body is able to come to a decision on matters and thus still have time to act on such a decision, should you decide how I might hope. Thank You. - Francisco Clemente, Duque de Madrid, Chief Ambassador of the Spanish Crown

	21-10-2003 05:13									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

The following letter was sent to Beta of Vox Controli:

quote: Beta, I'd like to set up a chat time with you for some point in the near future. In the event we make it through the next few turns (which is looking a bit more likely with the GoW rider stack we just wiped out, though only a bit more likely) and we succeed at some other initiatives in the works, it may be possible to continue discussions with Vox Controli where I left them off some time ago. I have been in discussions with multiple teams about granting Vox Controli a significant part of Bob. I'm sure you'll be interested in that, but it probably wouldn't be right to discuss the feasibility of that plan I've been working on until the events of the next few turns play themselves out. That said, I'd be willing to meet you in chat sometime this week to discuss them. Please let me know when might be good for you. - Francisco Clemente, Duque de Madrid, Chief Ambassador of the Spanish Crown (Arnelos)

	21-10-2003 05:15									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Response from Arrian of GS:

quote: I can't make the chat, but I can tell you that if you can get Lego to give you gunpowder and saltpeter, I'm SURE we can come to an agreement by which they get luxuries from us. No problemo there. I doubt they will offer such tangible support, but by all means go for it. -Arrian

	21-10-2003 05:16									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Response from Theseus of GS:

quote: Arnelos, I believe that Arrian has responded that we will trust in you and the rest of Spain to negotiate with Lego (and Vox?) as best as you are able, and that we will abide by the terms provided. I am available for chat tonight, but am truly weak at things IRC, so would need some assistance (I have mIRC). Theseus

	21-10-2003 09:31									#6
	Got spare money?

My chat with Sharpe from Legoland...

LEARNED FROM SHARPE:

- After Gathering Storm allied with Roleplay Team, Legoland allied with Glory of War (for techsharing and luxuries only at the time)
- Legoland was hoping that GoW would eventually turn on ND, but it has become increasingly apparent that Legoland is the rusty third wheel of the ND-GoW relationship
- Legoland has deployed a sizable number of LEFs (Legoland Expeditionary Forces) to GoW and ND territory, for the purpose of helping to defend GoW from any GS attack, but hoping they can be used against ND
- Legoland is currently providing GoW with their source of iron
- Both Legoland and GoW have Gunpowder
- A growing number of people on Legoland have become convinced that Legoland should either be fully nuetral or switch allegiance to an alliance with Gathering Storm against Glory of War and Neu Demogyptica
- Vondrack, who is both Foreign Minister and de facto leader of Legoland, is strongly in support of the Glory of War alliance (which he negotiated)
- Tiberius and lmtroops have sided with vondrack on the matter
- Sharpe and Nimitz are the most Pro-RP/GS. Kloreep and ZargonX are nuetral, along with most of the rest of the team's semi-actives. They are generally much more Pro-GS/RP than Pro-GoW/ND in terms of personal sentiment, but have been willing to continue following vondrack's pro-GoW policy until recently.
- Part of the problem, according to Sharpe, is that vondrack has been guilty on at least two occassions of ignoring ministerial orders or the results of voting and when he handles the save doing what he wants instead. vondrack quit the Presidency the last time it happened, but now that Legoland no longer has an official Presidency and vondrack is handling the saves by default, he's basically doing what he wants to keep the game moving while his team spends forever just discussing and not deciding.

WHAT I DID:

- I managed to (very easily) convince Sharpe that we had already LONG suspected that Legoland was GoW's benefactor and the theory was first popularized almost as soon as the war started. I mentioned that MZ's behavior, in pariticular, was seen as a sign by those of us who knew him well that he was very confident of relations with Legoland... which obviously gave us reason to worry. THIS, when shared with Legoland by Sharpe, has apparently had some impact by causing them to spin the conspiracy theory that Glory of War was intentionally attempting to make it known that Legoland sided with GoW, thus sabotating Legoland's relations with RP and GS. To be perfectly fair, while we certainly didn't fully believe that Legoland and Glory of War were allied, we HAVE long suspected that they were in some form of collaboration and MZ's high confidence level about GoW-Lego diplomacy indicated to us, at the very least, that he felt confident that Lego would never help RP Team.

--------------

I am passing this information on to GS as well.

	21-10-2003 09:37									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

UPDATE:

Members of the Legoland team are currently discussiong a potential strategy for Gathering Storm and Legoland to cooperate on reaching the Industrial Age ASAP and thus make sure that both have railroads and riflemen so that GS' lack of saltpeter doesn't get them run over and Lego's lack of an army (currently) doesn't get them run over.

I'll let you know if I learn more.

	21-10-2003 09:46									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

ANOTHER UPDATE:

Legoland seems to be growing more open to splitting off their relationship with Glory of War and pursuing an alliance with Gathering Storm instead. They would like to pursue a joint chat with Gathering Storm to discuss the technology alliance idea. I told them which GS members might be good for that and that I'd be more than willing to help set that up.

I plan to go to notyoueither directly about this and speak him about RP's desire to be part of the negotiations (read, me) so that we continue to have at lest a voice at the table. It's also true that for as much work as I've put into encouraging this type of thing, I'd like to see if I can help make it happen (or look out for false sincerity regarding pursuing it).

	21-10-2003 09:53									#9
	Remove this text

Nice.

Weird to hear that about vondrack, doesn't sound like him at all to act so out of line of what his team wants. If he's doing these things, then why is he the defacto leader? Why doesn't someone else step up?

	21-10-2003 10:08									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by BigFree Nice. Weird to hear that about vondrack, doesn't sound like him at all to act so out of line of what his team wants. If he's doing these things, then why is he the defacto leader? Why doesn't someone else step up?

Keep in mind that this is merely how Sharpe (who is diametrically opposed to vondrack) is portraying the situation.

The reality seems to be that Tiberius strongly supports the same position as vondrack, as does lmtroops.

Only Sharpe seems strongly opposed, with the rest of the team somewhere in between just not having cared enough or just not sticking their necks out enough.

That said, I do believe that ZargonX and Kloreep are probably in the "in between" crowd, given how non-commital they are in general.

	21-10-2003 10:10									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I've now PMed notyoueither about all of this and about my intention to both help set up a Lego-GS chat, and FAR more importantly, make sure that RP Team is represented there.

	21-10-2003 20:33									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Very important info.
Those damn Legolanders... They´ve been teh ones who kept GoW at war for so long!!! Weren´t it for them they´d be knocked out of it for lack of iron.
But we must take this opportunity to spread unrest and chaos oon their team´s politics. We must try to galvanize Zargon and Kloreep´s will on our side, so that pro-us Legolanders at least number equally the pro-GoW legolanders.

	21-10-2003 22:04									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

For some reason I'm not suprised that Legoland was helping them. Certainly, they have honoured our "most favoured nation status"...

How did you manage to obtain that confession, Arnelos? You certainly are very good at this kind of stuff!

	21-10-2003 22:57									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I'm not sure if Vondrack hates me or our team, but he has always been staunchly anti-RP since I got on his case a long time ago about why they weren't going to honor our "most favored nation" status.

He wrote a very long and egotistical diatribe in our ISDG forum about how surprised he was at how good our ISDG FAM was when our RP FAM was so bad, and then went on to critique and comment and thorougly piss me off in his typical Vondrack fashion.

Frankly, if we could assassinate a foreign leader, he'd be on the top of my list. He is singlehandedly killing our chances of getting any Legoland support. I'm not sure if there's a way around him, but if there is, I need to have no part in it ...

Unless one of you can find out why he hates us. If it's me, then find out if I gave him some PM apology and told him how right he was and stroked his ego if it'd change his mind or warm him up to us. Whatever works, just tell me.

--Togas

p.s. And Arnelos, keep up the good work.

	22-10-2003 01:54									#15
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Excelent work. Good going. Keep it up.

Vondrack has had a long standing grudge against us, as Togas pointed out above, but I also do not know the (ir)rational behind it.

	22-10-2003 02:50									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Bad news, folks. Had a long chat with vondrack and he basically lays down the line hard that Legoland isn't going to be switching sides.

I'm certainly going to follow up with Sharpe, Nimitz, Kloreep, and ZargonX to make sure this isn't just vondrack speaking for the rest of his team, but I'd say t his is a very bad sign.

The fact that vondrack admits that they could be making a mistake does leave open tiny tiny tiny glimmer of hope, but it's not much of one.

Assuming this is entirely legit from vondrack, this closes the matter.

I'm going to be sending the save now.

quote: vondrack> Hello! Arnelos> hey vondrack> sorry for the delay, my nick got unregistered and I have had to fix things up ..................... (censored ISDG material)...................... vondrack> anyway vondrack> that's not what you want me to talk about Arnelos> of course vondrack> I have no good news for you Arnelos> so I figured vondrack> said very briefly, Legoland is not going to help vondrack> actually vondrack> more or less, the only help possible would be direct military intervention Arnelos> I seem to think that Gunpowder would give us a fighting chance vondrack> and we are not going to do that vondrack> I understand you would believe so vondrack> but it's not true Arnelos> at the very least, it might bleed GoW and ND some more UUs Arnelos> and that can't hurt anyone but them vondrack> the map generator screwed some teams big time Arnelos> so I have been lead to believe vondrack> speaking about saltpeter, that is vondrack> though... I am actually disclosing something that is not all that relevant vondrack> the thing is that the whole problem with the world's saltpeter deposits Arnelos> is that legoland has the lion's share of them, no? vondrack> has nothing to do with our involvement in the war vondrack> ah, no... not lion's share, I would not put it that way vondrack> enough vondrack> though quite inconveniently located vondrack> but that's, as I said, not the reason for withholding our help Arnelos> you're allied to GoW Arnelos> which, if I dare say so, will eventually come back to bite you vondrack> I am sorry, I cannot answer questions regarding alliances Legoland may or may not be part of Arnelos> vondrack> if it was a question, that is... Arnelos> We've actually believed you were allied with GoW for quite some time now Arnelos> QUITE some time Arnelos> here's the thing... you guys helping GoW made a ton of sense, I will admit, when GS entered the war to help us Arnelos> but that's no longer true Arnelos> GS and RP are not winning this war Arnelos> until GoW and ND are re-contained, you run the very real risk that you will help them break out and eventually even threaten you Arnelos> keeping Bob weak and divided would seem the superior optio Arnelos> *option vondrack> it's difficult for me to discuss these things - as I have said, I can't confirm nor dent that we may or may not be allied/friendly/unfriendly/hostile towards another team vondrack> *deny vondrack> so, let's talk academic Arnelos> you do, so for me it's beside the point vondrack> I do what? vondrack> talk academic? confirm? deny? Arnelos> my team is on the brink of either surviving or being killed off... I have no time for academic discussions... you're allied with GoW. I'm trying to tell you, reasonably, that this is no longer a policy which fits your interests. That it happens to be hurting us as well is why I'm saying it, of course. Arnelos> but that doesn't prevent it from being true, either Arnelos> fact is, if ND and GoW actually *win* this war, which is looking much more likely, they will have the power to start looking for other targets Arnelos> and, to be perfectly honest, Legoland is the rusty third wheel of the ND-GoW relationship vondrack> Arnelos, let's not get into this, please vondrack> there is, I am sorry, nothing you can do to change things Arnelos> there is, you're simply choosing not to exercise it Arnelos> the bone-crushing momentum of previous policy vondrack> I meant that you, Arnelos (and for that matter, even me, vondrack), cannot do anything to change the Legoland's decision Arnelos> YOU can't change it? vondrack> it's not that we would be hesitating, still waging pros and cons Arnelos> I have been lead to believe otherwise. It's not that you can't, it's that you won't vondrack> explain, please vondrack> do you think I have any special powers in Legoland? Arnelos> Legoland retains the power of freedom of action... you have it within your power to change course. That you are choosing not to is a choice of your own volition. No-one is forcing you to hold to the present course, with the dangers that lay ahead. vondrack> oh, yes, that's true Arnelos> I happen to believe that you are one of the principle individuals opposed to changing course... multiple individuals from Legoland have mentioned this... that the main obstacle to changing Legoland policy is you. vondrack> ummm... things in Legoland are decided by polls vondrack> my vote is as important as any other Arnelos> while true, apparently you hold more weight over other people's votes than you might assume vondrack> like I can influence them? Arnelos> votes are decided as much by convincing arguments as by anything else vondrack> well, that is often true Arnelos> look... I understand that I come to you as a highly biased source. I obviously have a vested interest in my own team's survival.... that said... Arnelos> that said, it's still true, as I see it, that Legoland is encouraging a dangerous future for itself by continuing to support the Glory of War. It has the rather troubling potential of comign back to bite you. Arnelos> I'm not making that up I understand your concerns. But Legoland is not taking its future lightly. We have been discussing the situation quite a bit. vondrack> And the result was vondrack> (it changed radically after GS entered the war) vondrack> that we chose to not assist you Arnelos> the point is... there is an option you could exercise that would have significantly less chance of biting you back. The word of Gathering Storm is their bond. We have found that they have performed to every letter of our treaties with vondrack> it may have been the wrong thing to do vondrack> (that was about the "not assist you" part) Arnelos> I have discussed the matter with Gathering Storm and they seem willing to sign a treaty with Legoland in which they would bind themselves to an honorable non-aggression agreement if Legoland would cease support for GoW and instead work with us Arnelos> the key of the matter is that where GoW would violate such an agreement in a heartbeat if the opportunity presented itself, our teams would not Arnelos> I believe we can achieve a genuine commitment to ending the game in a peaceable fashion vondrack> Arnelos, I am sorry I cannot give you an answer that would make you happier - but I am here communicating the stance of my team (though not denying it's my own, too) vondrack> we heard your proposals, your arguments vondrack> you may be right vondrack> we admit that vondrack> but still, we made our minds vondrack> and we are not going to change the decision ............. (removed some irrelevant meta-DG discussion)................ vondrack> I have to admit that my interest in DGs vondrack> is getting weaker and weaker... vondrack> I find it difficult vondrack> to pitch myself against other people - not only ingame enemies, but even against my teammates vondrack> if we disagree on something vondrack> (and there were a LOT of times this happened in Lego) Arnelos> indeed Arnelos> on any team Arnelos> hell, we've had two attempted revolutions on this team vondrack> I just hate it when I have to tell you, Arnelos, things I have told you today - yet I have no choice ................ (censored ISDG turn reports discussion)................... ................ (removed some discussion of Legoland members gone inactive).............. Arnelos> and vondrack... something else to mention... vondrack> not too active recently vondrack> yes? Arnelos> I was gone from the time RP and Lego made contact to the GoW-RP war and I know I'm missing whatever element of that may be playing into the current situation. Arnelos> it seems to me that a lot of history happpened in there Arnelos> most of it not good vondrack> most of, actually... vondrack> yes vondrack> that's why I understand that you are trying to fix things now and feel bad for not being able to help you out Arnelos> ah vondrack> but things moved a lot while you were away vondrack> an awful lot happened Arnelos> yeah, it sounds to me like the start-of-game agreement became a rather nasty bone of contention.... it may not be a good idea to sign those in future games... a good leason to learn vondrack> well - the only problem I can see vondrack> might be that you thought the deal was something different from what we thought it was vondrack> we though it was two-way, mutual Arnelos> it was a bit vague Arnelos> ah.... Arnelos> I see vondrack> yes, it must have been, I guess Arnelos> the whole thing was like 4 lines vondrack> but the thing is that many times, we felt as if RP saw it as one-way (as in "you still pay for getting Carthage") vondrack> I made a very lame attempt at explaining that in the ISDG thread - but spoiled the whole thing by the part on Togas Arnelos> in effect, the agreement was the "price" for Legoland getting Carthage... which is my point. Looking back, I don't think establishing a debter-debtee relationship like that at the start of the game was productive for relations. vondrack> I later regretted that post a lot vondrack> ah, so - RP _did_ see it as a debter-debtee? Arnelos> yes vondrack> just a sec Arnelos> that was the team's understanding of the treaty Arnelos> that it was the price for Carthage vondrack> do you have the wording of the treaty somewhere? Arnelos> sure... lemme get that Arnelos> We, the Roleplay team, hereby promise that we will give the Legoland team the civilization of Carthage and we will cooperate with research (each team researching different paths and then trading). Arnelos> In exchange, Legoland promises to not declare war on or join in any war against the Roleplay Civilization at any time prior to 1000 AD, to give the Roleplay Civilization "Most Favored Nation" trade status (which shall include selling us techs at a lower price than any other civ), and cooperate with research as explained above. Arnelos> Both teams also pledge to try to maintain good relations throughout the game and to attempt to cooperate for the mutual protection and success of our civilizations. Arnelos> Signed in 4000 BC vondrack> yes, that's the text I have always been referring to as well vondrack> so that was not the problem vondrack> the problem is - when you read through it vondrack> what actually came to fruition? Arnelos> I'd agree that RP made more of the "most favored nation" thing than you guys believed it meant... probably plyed on that line a bit hard. That said, many on RP remain resentful in the present conflict of the non-aggression portion (not joining another at war with RP). So all around, there's a resentment that Legoland did not fulfill the treaty, yes. Arnelos> in all, the treaty just didn't work vondrack> the problem is it is not a war of RP against GoW+ND vondrack> not only Arnelos> too vague and too binding on future action vondrack> the GS bit messed things badly vondrack> agreed vondrack> trading civs pre-game for something ingame is just no-no for any future games Arnelos> agreed vondrack> especially if that something is vaguely defined Arnelos> a good lesson learned, as I said vondrack> pity you have to pay so many hours for such a lesson Arnelos> well, I should probably get going, since I have other things to do today. As for you, it's what? 10:30 or 11:30 p.m. there? vondrack> 11:30pm Arnelos> EEST? vondrack> yep vondrack> the time should shift back to normal soon, I think Arnelos> alright, thanks for the chat, even if it didn't work out as hoped vondrack> yeah - take care ........(censored bit of ISDG discussion)...........

	22-10-2003 05:23									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

Well, it seems Lego is willingly violating this part of the pre-game Pact:

"In exchange, Legoland promises to not declare war on or join in any war against the Roleplay Civilization at any time prior to 1000 AD..."

Even if they are only Tech/Lux allies with GoW and or ND, they are helping those two in a war against RP by providing them those things.

Oh well, not much interest in them keeping to that agreement, at least not on vondracks part. I wonder what would happen if we just made that Pact public and let other teams comment on it, and for us to just remain silent for a while?

	22-10-2003 05:56									#18
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by BigFree Well, it seems Lego is willingly violating this part of the pre-game Pact: "In exchange, Legoland promises to not declare war on or join in any war against the Roleplay Civilization at any time prior to 1000 AD..." Even if they are only Tech/Lux allies with GoW and or ND, they are helping those two in a war against RP by providing them those things. Oh well, not much interest in them keeping to that agreement, at least not on vondracks part. I wonder what would happen if we just made that Pact public and let other teams comment on it, and for us to just remain silent for a while?

That card is certainly in our deck, but I'd prefer not to play it just yet. We play that card if we actually have something to gain from attempting to embarass Legoland while paying the price of not being able to reconicile very easily with them.

Right now, I don't see any tangible benefit... so I'll save the card for when I do...

	22-10-2003 20:37									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Right now I think to myself we must survive only to be able to bloody Legoland in the nose, and piss in their capitol city.

	23-10-2003 02:02									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I think our only hope is that Vondrack will get sick or uninvolved with Legoland. Get rid of him, and we can get Legoland to change their policy.

Frankly, without Legoland, we're going to lose this war. ND + GoW overpower us, and without saltpeter they will also overpower GS.

The only other option is to make a deal with ND or GoW, and that seems even less likely than making a deal with Lego.

Keep working on it.

--Togas

	23-10-2003 02:08									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Once GS discovers the tech, GP, there are resources on Bob of Salt Peter. It's getting to the tech that is tricky. GS, at full research prolly could do it in 12 turns. But they are doing the 'upgrade' bit by building Horses, Spears and Warriors then upgrading them. GoW is also doing this, that's why they went for Leo's.

	23-10-2003 08:42									#22
	Inflate your Upload Space

Such incredible stonewalling from vonD.... what could he possibly be thinking to be acting like this?

* MrWhereItsAt shakes head

I don't know what went wrong with this DG, but it did so when many of us weren't paying attention and somehow actually seems to be serious enough to be killing interest even further.

	23-10-2003 18:41									#23
	Suffering from ads?

Well... What can I say is that Vondrack has destroyed his reputation for any future demogames.

	23-10-2003 19:25									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well, he has lost MY respect at least. Never do a deal with the foolish blockhead,chamberlain-wannabe, treat-breaker that he is.

	23-10-2003 22:42									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

With the seemingly slow research of this game, we really need to do some 40 turn research for GS.

Once they get a new tech with branches, they should give us the tech and let us 40 turn on of the branches while they do the others. We'd give them the tech once researched and then start on another.

We need to do more to help our allies.

--Togas

	23-10-2003 22:44									#26
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

One more thing:

Can we try to get Vox to give us Gunpowder?

Vox isn't entirely Legoland's *****, and maybe we can get Sharpe and other Legolanders to convince Vox to help us ... maybe allow Legoland to keep their neutrality and/or alliance if they work through a 3rd party!

--Togas

	23-10-2003 23:04									#27
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

About the 40 turn research:

I don't know if we have all the techs that GS have, but currently we can research Printing Press, Music Theory, Banking, Astronomy and Invention

GS is probably researching Invention (not counting that maybe we can get it from another sources) so this tech is out of consideration.

About the remaining ones, Music Theory is a dead end which only gives access to a ridiculous wonder. Printing Press and Banking are both needed for Democracy (Banking also gives access to banks and Economics and is a compulsory tech). Astronomy gives access to Navigation and Physics, plus the ability to build a better ship, the Caravel.

I think that probably the best choice is to research Printing Press to give help them accessing Democracy, but of course it would be better to ask them which tech they prefer. In any case there are 3 potential techs (Printing Press, Banking and Astronomy) that we could be researching.

	23-10-2003 23:08									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Togas One more thing: Can we try to get Vox to give us Gunpowder?

Probably Vox has a lot more to gain from us getting Gunpowder. If GoW/ND defeats us, Vox aspirations for GoW territory is over.

	23-10-2003 23:22									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Also, about this 40 turn research. I have a bit of free time, so if no one else if available I can contact GS for this concrete issue. The only problem is that I don't who is the concrete person I should contact for this. Of course, if another more experienced diplomat wants to do it it would be better

	24-10-2003 15:42									#30
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Sorry for the delay, guys I'm very sad to read this news. Currently I don't have enough time to help but I'm strongly supporting RP in my heart.

And I hate Legoland for his opportunism and his high treason