21-10-2003 11:22									#1
	Holy sh*t! Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Received from Arnelos.

quote: notyoueither, I'll copy for you the same report I made to my team, with an addendum of what I'd like to request of you: My chat with Sharpe from Legoland... LEARNED FROM SHARPE: - After Gathering Storm allied with Roleplay Team, Legoland allied with Glory of War (for techsharing and luxuries only at the time, no military aid) - Legoland was hoping that GoW would eventually turn on ND, but it has become increasingly apparent that Legoland is the rusty third wheel of the ND-GoW relationship - Legoland has deployed a sizable number of "LEF"s (Legoland Expeditionary Forces) to GoW and ND territory, for the ostensive purpose of helping to defend GoW from any GS attack, but really were hoping they can be used against ND - Legoland is currently providing GoW with their source of iron - Both Legoland and GoW have Gunpowder - A growing number of people on Legoland have become convinced that Legoland should either be fully nuetral or switch allegiance to an alliance with Gathering Storm against Glory of War and Neu Demogyptica - Vondrack, who is both Foreign Minister and de facto leader of Legoland, is strongly in support of the Glory of War alliance (which he negotiated) - Tiberius and lmtroops have sided with vondrack on the matter - Sharpe and Nimitz are the most Pro-RP/GS. Kloreep and ZargonX are nuetral, along with most of the rest of the team's semi-actives. They are generally much more Pro-GS/RP than Pro-GoW/ND in terms of personal sentiment, but have been willing to continue following vondrack's pro-GoW policy until recently. - Part of the problem, according to Sharpe, is that vondrack has been guilty on at least two occassions of ignoring ministerial orders or the results of voting and when he handles the save doing what he wants instead. vondrack quit the Presidency the last time it happened, but now that Legoland no longer has an official Presidency and vondrack is handling the saves by default, he's basically doing what he wants to keep the game moving while his team spends forever just discussing and not deciding. WHAT I DID: - I managed to (very easily) convince Sharpe that we had already LONG suspected that Legoland was GoW's benefactor and the theory was first popularized almost as soon as the war started. I mentioned that MZ's behavior, in pariticular, was seen as a sign by those of us who knew him well that he was very confident of relations with Legoland... which obviously gave us reason to worry. THIS, when shared with Legoland by Sharpe, has apparently had some impact by causing them to spin the conspiracy theory that Glory of War was intentionally attempting to make it known that Legoland sided with GoW, thus sabotating Legoland's relations with RP and GS. To be perfectly fair, while we certainly didn't fully believe that Legoland and Glory of War were allied, we HAVE long suspected that they were in some form of collaboration and MZ's high confidence level about GoW-Lego diplomacy indicated to us, at the very least, that he felt confident that Lego would never help RP Team. UPDATE: Members of the Legoland team are currently discussiong a potential strategy for Gathering Storm and Legoland to cooperate on reaching to the Industrial Age ASAP and thus make sure that both have railroads and riflemen so that GS' lack of saltpeter doesn't get them run over and Lego's lack of an army (currently) doesn't get them run over. ------------- Another PM to follow that finishes this one...

	21-10-2003 11:24									#2
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

cont.

quote: notyoueither, This PM continues the last one ----------------------------- ANOTHER UPDATE: Legoland would like to pursue a joint chat with Gathering Storm to discuss the technology alliance idea. I told them which GS members might be good to contact to set that up. Please note that while I certainly understand that RP need not attend if the only area of discussion is technology, I would greatly appreciate being there to continue building on my idea for a Legoland to seek a Legoland-GS Alliance rather than their current aid to Glory of War... a change that could return some semblance of stability to the planet (and help ensure our teams' victory in the present conflict) along with perhaps ensuring an equitable situation for Legoland and GS in the future. Please let me know if they contact you guys about this. Thanks. - Arnelos P.S. I'm not holding out great hope for this, but I'll let you know my thoughts on it... If we can convince the core membership of their team (especially ZargonX, who is the other de facto leader) to go along with an idea for a Legoland-GS Alliance, breaking off their relationship with Glory of War, that might be enough to convince or overpower vondrack if he remains committed to helping GoW. Giving the pro-GS faction some ammunition to fire with, like a REAL offer from Gathering Storm that they helped negotiate, might just tip the scales inside Legoland.... as far as I see, we don't have very many other options.

	21-10-2003 13:46									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

In the light of this, might I suggest the possibility of delaying a landing in GoW territory. We need Lego to break their alliance with GoW, and for that to happen they have to think that we are too weak to be able to fight effectively aganist the 'axis of evil' on our own. Landing 16 units plus later reinforcements in the north when we are apparently struggling in the south might do enough to convice the Lego waverers that we are strong enough already, and that supporting GoW is the best way to maintain the status quo and let Lego win the game.

Plus, since GoW have gunpowder (and probably saltpetre), we're going to be facing at least some muskets (and upgrades will rapidly be done in any area we are threatening).

Both of these factors lessen the value of a northern invasion. It may still be the right thing to do, but we should reconsider our options in the light of this new info, IMHO.

I know the only posts I've made so far on the subject of operation Yellowknife have been somewhat anti-, so I should say that I'm very much in favour of the idea of taking the fight to GoW in the north - I think it is the right idea (taking the initiative, and hopefully getting the chance to do some damage to GoW), but we may need to address the timing and size of the force.

BTW I've forgotten: do we have astronomy yet or not?

	21-10-2003 15:55									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

[treebeard]
This is indeed a bundle of news!
[/treebeard]

Well, I've been posting in a pro-operation Yellowknife spirit, largely because I wanted us to (a) hit them before they got gunpowder and (b) relieve pressure in the south.

Now we know they have gunpowder and possibly Lego cash in addition to Leo's, it certainly seems less of an attractive option.

	21-10-2003 15:57									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Holy Sh*t indeed!!!

We're doing all we can to prevent GoW and ND from taking all of bob and becoming the superpowers that will win the game while all the time Lego are helping them do this.

This is crazy what are we going to do?

This is indeed a very complex situation that needs to be looked at closely.

We should down play our relationship with RP as best we can, if no one knows they are a GS vassal state we could get a better deal in any solution that is decided upon.

We don't have astro or invention.

	21-10-2003 17:46									#6
	Remove this text

I can't really comment now, but

damn

	21-10-2003 18:07									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

"The best way to defeat your enemy is to get them to surrender without fighting.
The second best way is to destroy their alliances.
The third best way is to destroy their armies.
The least desirable way is to destroy their cities."


- Sun Tsu

Option 2 looks important right now.

	21-10-2003 18:16									#8
	Get a bigger avatar today!

****ing hell!

Recall the Yellowknife landing. I don't want our boys going up against fortified musketmen.

Everything to the south. We must rebuild RP!

-Arrian

	21-10-2003 21:29									#9
	Got spare money?

Hmmm... can anyone confirm, counting beakers, that GoW indeed has gunpowder? Also, did our income # on the F11 screen changed? (I mean the 5 per capita thing)

As to the rest: no time to throuroughly think it over. The musketmen aren't the biggest problem in itself, the only thing is that we can't risk them going to cavs before we either damage their core, or have somehow secured saltpeter ourselves.

Our main priority right now would be to get an idea on where to find saltpeter, because without it, we won't have cavs either, and could face cavs against our pikes.

DeepO

	22-10-2003 02:31									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

Lego appears to be quite the disjointed bunch. I think we can take advantage. I think its our only chance now, without saltpeter, to exploit this.

I certainly wouldn't want to be on a team like lego, where all is controlled by one member and he can blatantly disregard orders.

....

Had this news come in two turns, after the landing, we would be screwed, but luckily for us...

If GoW has GP, then they will have defense on all unclaimed saltpeter on Bob.

I think we should shift the units in the north back south to aid RP, at least the fast movers.

Perhaps we could use the money we've been stockpiling to purchase invention and gunpowder and others from lego?



This might be another opening to talk to vox.

	22-10-2003 03:48									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The more I think on this, the more I don't know how to react. Consider this: If Lego wants to delay us, what would be teh best way of doing so? Telling RP that they might switch sides might do the trick...

Can we just go ahead, and pretend like GoW has no GP? no... but can we wait, and risk that while GoW now isn't ready, they will be ready in let's say 5 turns, with musketmen everywhere? No as well.

My idea is to go on as planned, but with a bit more caution. Instead of dropping 16 units, followed by some reinforcements, make sure we have 40 to drop at least, and do it asap. In the mean time, use all diplomatic options to get Lego on our side. If they don't meet our interntal deadline, too bad... we can't be stalled in our plans, if we wait until GoW has it's North completely fortified, with cavs closeby, we lose all options (also to get ourselves some saltpeter)

DeepO

	22-10-2003 04:44									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Good points DeepO

This could just be a ruse.

OTOH, how would they know that we are nearly ready to land on them?


I think if we slow things down a bit (haha) perhaps RP can get to lego before our go-time.

We really can't aford to be stalled.

	22-10-2003 07:44									#13
	Got spare money?

email from Arnelos:

quote: Bad news, folks. Had a long chat with vondrack and he basically lays down the line hard that Legoland isn't going to be switching sides. I'm certainly going to follow up with Sharpe, Nimitz, Kloreep, and ZargonX to make sure this isn't just vondrack speaking for the rest of his team, but I'd say t his is a very bad sign. The fact that vondrack admits that they could be making a mistake does leave open tiny tiny tiny glimmer of hope if we survive in the future, but it's not much of one. Assuming this is entirely legit from vondrack, this closes the matter. I'm going to be sending the save now. quote: vondrack> Hello! Arnelos> hey vondrack> sorry for the delay, my nick got unregistered and I have had to fix things up ..................... (censored ISDG material)...................... vondrack> anyway vondrack> that's not what you want me to talk about Arnelos> of course vondrack> I have no good news for you Arnelos> so I figured vondrack> said very briefly, Legoland is not going to help vondrack> actually vondrack> more or less, the only help possible would be direct military intervention Arnelos> I seem to think that Gunpowder would give us a fighting chance vondrack> and we are not going to do that vondrack> I understand you would believe so vondrack> but it's not true Arnelos> at the very least, it might bleed GoW and ND some more UUs Arnelos> and that can't hurt anyone but them vondrack> the map generator screwed some teams big time Arnelos> so I have been lead to believe vondrack> speaking about saltpeter, that is vondrack> though... I am actually disclosing something that is not all that relevant vondrack> the thing is that the whole problem with the world's saltpeter deposits Arnelos> is that legoland has the lion's share of them, no? vondrack> has nothing to do with our involvement in the war vondrack> ah, no... not lion's share, I would not put it that way vondrack> enough vondrack> though quite inconveniently located vondrack> but that's, as I said, not the reason for withholding our help Arnelos> you're allied to GoW Arnelos> which, if I dare say so, will eventually come back to bite you vondrack> I am sorry, I cannot answer questions regarding alliances Legoland may or may not be part of Arnelos> vondrack> if it was a question, that is... Arnelos> We've actually believed you were allied with GoW for quite some time now Arnelos> QUITE some time Arnelos> here's the thing... you guys helping GoW made a ton of sense, I will admit, when GS entered the war to help us Arnelos> but that's no longer true Arnelos> GS and RP are not winning this war Arnelos> until GoW and ND are re-contained, you run the very real risk that you will help them break out and eventually even threaten you Arnelos> keeping Bob weak and divided would seem the superior optio Arnelos> *option vondrack> it's difficult for me to discuss these things - as I have said, I can't confirm nor dent that we may or may not be allied/friendly/unfriendly/hostile towards another team vondrack> *deny vondrack> so, let's talk academic Arnelos> you do, so for me it's beside the point vondrack> I do what? vondrack> talk academic? confirm? deny? Arnelos> my team is on the brink of either surviving or being killed off... I have no time for academic discussions... you're allied with GoW. I'm trying to tell you, reasonably, that this is no longer a policy which fits your interests. That it happens to be hurting us as well is why I'm saying it, of course. Arnelos> but that doesn't prevent it from being true, either Arnelos> fact is, if ND and GoW actually *win* this war, which is looking much more likely, they will have the power to start looking for other targets Arnelos> and, to be perfectly honest, Legoland is the rusty third wheel of the ND-GoW relationship vondrack> Arnelos, let's not get into this, please vondrack> there is, I am sorry, nothing you can do to change things Arnelos> there is, you're simply choosing not to exercise it Arnelos> the bone-crushing momentum of previous policy vondrack> I meant that you, Arnelos (and for that matter, even me, vondrack), cannot do anything to change the Legoland's decision Arnelos> YOU can't change it? vondrack> it's not that we would be hesitating, still waging pros and cons Arnelos> I have been lead to believe otherwise. It's not that you can't, it's that you won't vondrack> explain, please vondrack> do you think I have any special powers in Legoland? Arnelos> Legoland retains the power of freedom of action... you have it within your power to change course. That you are choosing not to is a choice of your own volition. No-one is forcing you to hold to the present course, with the dangers that lay ahead. vondrack> oh, yes, that's true Arnelos> I happen to believe that you are one of the principle individuals opposed to changing course... multiple individuals from Legoland have mentioned this... that the main obstacle to changing Legoland policy is you. vondrack> ummm... things in Legoland are decided by polls vondrack> my vote is as important as any other Arnelos> while true, apparently you hold more weight over other people's votes than you might assume vondrack> like I can influence them? Arnelos> votes are decided as much by convincing arguments as by anything else vondrack> well, that is often true Arnelos> look... I understand that I come to you as a highly biased source. I obviously have a vested interest in my own team's survival.... that said... Arnelos> that said, it's still true, as I see it, that Legoland is encouraging a dangerous future for itself by continuing to support the Glory of War. It has the rather troubling potential of comign back to bite you. Arnelos> I'm not making that up I understand your concerns. But Legoland is not taking its future lightly. We have been discussing the situation quite a bit. vondrack> And the result was vondrack> (it changed radically after GS entered the war) vondrack> that we chose to not assist you Arnelos> the point is... there is an option you could exercise that would have significantly less chance of biting you back. The word of Gathering Storm is their bond. We have found that they have performed to every letter of our treaties with vondrack> it may have been the wrong thing to do vondrack> (that was about the "not assist you" part) Arnelos> I have discussed the matter with Gathering Storm and they seem willing to sign a treaty with Legoland in which they would bind themselves to an honorable non-aggression agreement if Legoland would cease support for GoW and instead work with us Arnelos> the key of the matter is that where GoW would violate such an agreement in a heartbeat if the opportunity presented itself, our teams would not Arnelos> I believe we can achieve a genuine commitment to ending the game in a peaceable fashion vondrack> Arnelos, I am sorry I cannot give you an answer that would make you happier - but I am here communicating the stance of my team (though not denying it's my own, too) vondrack> we heard your proposals, your arguments vondrack> you may be right vondrack> we admit that vondrack> but still, we made our minds vondrack> and we are not going to change the decision ............. (removed some irrelevant meta-DG discussion)................ vondrack> I have to admit that my interest in DGs vondrack> is getting weaker and weaker... vondrack> I find it difficult vondrack> to pitch myself against other people - not only ingame enemies, but even against my teammates vondrack> if we disagree on something vondrack> (and there were a LOT of times this happened in Lego) Arnelos> indeed Arnelos> on any team Arnelos> hell, we've had two attempted revolutions on this team vondrack> I just hate it when I have to tell you, Arnelos, things I have told you today - yet I have no choice ................ (censored ISDG turn reports discussion)................... ................ (removed some discussion of Legoland members gone inactive).............. Arnelos> and vondrack... something else to mention... vondrack> not too active recently vondrack> yes? Arnelos> I was gone from the time RP and Lego made contact to the GoW-RP war and I know I'm missing whatever element of that may be playing into the current situation. Arnelos> it seems to me that a lot of history happpened in there Arnelos> most of it not good vondrack> most of, actually... vondrack> yes vondrack> that's why I understand that you are trying to fix things now and feel bad for not being able to help you out Arnelos> ah vondrack> but things moved a lot while you were away vondrack> an awful lot happened Arnelos> yeah, it sounds to me like the start-of-game agreement became a rather nasty bone of contention.... it may not be a good idea to sign those in future games... a good leason to learn vondrack> well - the only problem I can see vondrack> might be that you thought the deal was something different from what we thought it was vondrack> we though it was two-way, mutual Arnelos> it was a bit vague Arnelos> ah.... Arnelos> I see vondrack> yes, it must have been, I guess Arnelos> the whole thing was like 4 lines vondrack> but the thing is that many times, we felt as if RP saw it as one-way (as in "you still pay for getting Carthage") vondrack> I made a very lame attempt at explaining that in the ISDG thread - but spoiled the whole thing by the part on Togas Arnelos> in effect, the agreement was the "price" for Legoland getting Carthage... which is my point. Looking back, I don't think establishing a debter-debtee relationship like that at the start of the game was productive for relations. vondrack> I later regretted that post a lot vondrack> ah, so - RP _did_ see it as a debter-debtee? Arnelos> yes vondrack> just a sec Arnelos> that was the team's understanding of the treaty Arnelos> that it was the price for Carthage vondrack> do you have the wording of the treaty somewhere? Arnelos> sure... lemme get that Arnelos> We, the Roleplay team, hereby promise that we will give the Legoland team the civilization of Carthage and we will cooperate with research (each team researching different paths and then trading). Arnelos> In exchange, Legoland promises to not declare war on or join in any war against the Roleplay Civilization at any time prior to 1000 AD, to give the Roleplay Civilization "Most Favored Nation" trade status (which shall include selling us techs at a lower price than any other civ), and cooperate with research as explained above. Arnelos> Both teams also pledge to try to maintain good relations throughout the game and to attempt to cooperate for the mutual protection and success of our civilizations. Arnelos> Signed in 4000 BC vondrack> yes, that's the text I have always been referring to as well vondrack> so that was not the problem vondrack> the problem is - when you read through it vondrack> what actually came to fruition? Arnelos> I'd agree that RP made more of the "most favored nation" thing than you guys believed it meant... probably plyed on that line a bit hard. That said, many on RP remain resentful in the present conflict of the non-aggression portion (not joining another at war with RP). So all around, there's a resentment that Legoland did not fulfill the treaty, yes. Arnelos> in all, the treaty just didn't work vondrack> the problem is it is not a war of RP against GoW+ND vondrack> not only Arnelos> too vague and too binding on future action vondrack> the GS bit messed things badly vondrack> agreed vondrack> trading civs pre-game for something ingame is just no-no for any future games Arnelos> agreed vondrack> especially if that something is vaguely defined Arnelos> a good lesson learned, as I said vondrack> pity you have to pay so many hours for such a lesson Arnelos> well, I should probably get going, since I have other things to do today. As for you, it's what? 10:30 or 11:30 p.m. there? vondrack> 11:30pm Arnelos> EEST? vondrack> yep vondrack> the time should shift back to normal soon, I think Arnelos> alright, thanks for the chat, even if it didn't work out as hoped vondrack> yeah - take care ........(censored bit of ISDG discussion)...........

	22-10-2003 07:46									#14
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The thought crosses my mind that we are being deceived about the status of SP in the world. Just a hunch, but based on our geography...

	22-10-2003 08:00									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

We can have Invention for 768 out of 1056 beakers.

We could likely have GP in 8 or 10 turns with pedal to the metal.

quote: vondrack> the map generator screwed some teams big time Arnelos> so I have been lead to believe vondrack> speaking about saltpeter, that is vondrack> though... I am actually disclosing something that is not all that relevant vondrack> the thing is that the whole problem with the world's saltpeter deposits Arnelos> is that legoland has the lion's share of them, no? vondrack> has nothing to do with our involvement in the war vondrack> ah, no... not lion's share, I would not put it that way vondrack> enough vondrack> though quite inconveniently located

We have as much desert as Bob, or very close to it. Vox got screwed with no horses. We have a high percentage of mountains.

What do you think the chance is that we do not have SP, as has been reported to us? Slim to none, and Slim is on a horse, heading out of town.

	22-10-2003 08:16									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

I am feeling a gamble may be in order. My civ senses tell me so. Get GP. Now!

If necessary, install RP in Northern Stormia/ Estonia. Hunker down and prepare to defend ourselves. Let the carrion of ND, GoW and Lego contemplate the world of just the three of them. Let them begin to tear each other to pieces. Then, after we see who will have cavalry and who will not... then we can pick and choose our victim(s).

If we are without SP, we are dead. If we stall ourselves and I am right that we control more than our share of SP, we are letting go a fleeting advantage. In either case, the only path is to discover SP and have it.

I am proposing a risky venture. I would not do so without good reason. My reason is this...

During the ISDG, vondrack and I got to the point of finishing each others' sentences. It was/is spooky. Quite simply, we connect. When I read that chat log, it is plain to me that one of two conditions applies. Either Lego has all the SP, or we do. From their cageyness, my money is on we do. That would explain why they do not want to help our ally when help for our ally seems to be the only break on ND domination of Bob.

Do you agree?

	22-10-2003 08:19									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I don't know....

I'm thinking that we should beeline for astronomy and land on lego rather than Bob.

I think they need to get slapped around a bit.

Especially if they have a lot of defensive units on GoW territory.

	22-10-2003 08:23									#18
	Put an end to popups!

How does astronomy help us? We already have sea-worthy ships.

We do not have SP and muskets yet, let alone cavalry, and we have no prospects of trading for it.

	22-10-2003 08:54									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

My initial reaction?

I trust nye's instincts, implicitly. (Damn, this is a lot harder than dealing with AI civs!! ). But I come to a different conclusion.

I'd like to sleep on it though... back up, I'm gonna have a Chivas, and let mind mind wander. We might want to have a chat for blue skying what the heck is going on, and what we should do.

My gut thought for the night:

ND and GoW have NOTHING else... they are totally committed.

Think it through from there.

Fortune favors the bold.

	22-10-2003 08:55									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither How does astronomy help us? We already have sea-worthy ships. We do not have SP and muskets yet, let alone cavalry, and we have no prospects of trading for it.

My bad. confused about the abilities of our ships, crossing the ocean.

	22-10-2003 09:07									#21
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Astronomy still helps... we have a transportation constraint.

	22-10-2003 11:24									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I really don't want to see this thing as drawn out as nye sees it. Hunkering down for an invasion that could possibly never come? My idea is that GoW and ND's goal in this war is simply control of Bob, not necessairily our complete destruction. Not to mention that, if they do get control all of Bob, defending against their invasion (if it does happen) would be much more difficult.

However, I support pursuing an alliance with Lego for the time being, and deciding on a course for action if they do accept our offers. The way Lego swings will fundamentally change the tide of the war.

	22-10-2003 15:13									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

If the worst comes to the worst we can always just block any atempt at an invasion by manning all coast tiles. See how safe Lego feel with a fleet of GoW and ND ships full of units with nothing to do.

From the amount of desert visible on lego I'd guess they have at least one supply of SP, perhpas RP has alot or all of Bob's supply..... The problem is that their alliance need only have one source between them all and given the amount of land they have between them they will likely have that.

4 turns invention followed by rapid GP sounds cool. We should also watch for any movement on bob that could be SP related, new cities, workers building a road to nowhere, etc.

Landing on Lego with a **** load of Cav sounds very appealing.

At the moment we are in a good position in terms of threat. They know we have a large navy and large army but haven't seen either, and so are probably wondering what we are doing. Lego may be worried were going to land on them, and GoW/ND must be wondering where we're going to land on bob.

	22-10-2003 16:41									#24
	Increase Your PM Length

Something very fishy is going on, I agree on that for sure, nye. Us having all the SP though, would be the same chance of them having it all... My guess is that they want us to force things, possibly by attacking ND, or by attacking GoW, thus forcing them to intervene.

As to why they suspect something preparing: They know we're the strongest army, and they count units... they also know that in S-Bob, only one third of our troops are present... so of course they anticipate something happening with the rest of them.

So, how to proceed? Well... going after invention might be worth it, but if we go that path, we have to push forward to get to Cavs asap. That means we possibly try to get a beachhead in the North, while spending all on research instead of upgrade gold, and keep to what we have in the South. We save on knights, when getting GP make some move to where SP is (either inside ND, or from our beachhead N, if we keep it), upgrade, and try to get both ND and Gow.

Other option is to forget research for another 10 turns, and use the momentum we're creating in units to strike a decisive blow to GoW, possible conquering any possible SP sources we can't see. Risky.

Last option is to keep out of the North, and try to defend the South, while saving on knights, and going for Mil Trad.

Any way, Astro isn't really important right now. BTW, if Lego has GP, do they have Astro as well? We need some investigation done here... and I can't (sorry).
There is one consequence that I fear we're forgetting here: we can't have Lego invading Stormia from the East. can we please get some galleys there, on the lookout (fortified or moving to cover more ground)? We need at least 1 turn of warning from that side, we simply can't let them land. Once they are on Stormia, we will have a huge problem with internal defense if we plan on going invading... better to block their access.

DeepO

	23-10-2003 17:11									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

A Lego 'leak' that we are without gunpowder would certainly have the effect on GS that we are experiencing. ie - er, what do we do now?

How credible is the Lego source, and is he speaking for himself or his team? The source reported 2 things (1) we have no SP and (2) Lego are allied to GoW. The first would be a good ruse to rattle us if they wanted, but why the second? Vondrack effectively admitted it in another chat. Are we supposed to be demoralised into ineffectiveness by this double-blow?

	24-10-2003 03:19									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Someone needs to initiate direct contact with Lego.

	24-10-2003 03:52									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Arnie is on Poly IRC, requesting a chat.

	24-10-2003 16:52									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Someone needs to initiate direct contact with Lego.

Sorry... can't be me. I'm too irregular lately to be of any help as an ambassador. Next time I can check this site is probably on Sunday.

Arrian used to be vice ambassador, and nye was also involved, I hope you guys can take over. And offer my apologies to Lego / vondrack for my lack of involvement, please.

DeepO