22-10-2003 23:09									#31
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Osweld If you eat any meat at all, you don't have to worry about protien. Even if you go vegetarian, you don't have to worry about it as long as you have a varied diet. Protein is over hyped, the western diet has way more then you ever need in the first place.

That's much more true of Carbohydrates.


The body manufactures it's own cholesterol, yes. If you eat Cholesterol, the amounts created by the body decrease. The problems begin when you eat more cholesterol than you need.

My recommendation: monitor your LDL level.

	22-10-2003 23:56									#32
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As to the original question, see if you can find a seven-grain salad. I don't know how to make it myself, and imagine it would be alot of work, but I can get it freshly made from a local market, and it's damn good - it has lots of rices, grains, beans, and lentils in it.

	23-10-2003 00:18									#33
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Boshko bah! nothing beats quinoa:

Quinoa is definitely a great food, but I still have to give the nod to soybeans

http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshe...523,105,00.html


espescially if you are worried about cholosterol

"Soy protein is the only vegetable whose protein is complete. In fact, soy protein has attracted quite a bit of attention recently due to its ability to lower LDL ("bad" cholesterol) levels."

This is only one of soy's numerous benefits, which include cancer prevention and...

". Soybeans are high in protein (more than any other legume) and fiber, low in carbohydrates and are nutrient-dense. Phytochemicals in soybeans protect the heart against oxidation, inhibit blood clot formation, function as antioxidants and also exert anti-inflammatory actions. Soybeans, compared with other legumes, are higher in essential fatty acids, and are a good source of calcium, magnesium, lecithin, riboflavin, thiamin, fiber, folate (folic acid), and iron."

Plus the variety of products made from it are unparralleled.

http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshe...523,135,00.html

	23-10-2003 00:24									#34
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

OMG
nice links guys unfortunately they are from whacko diet sites online trying to advance their theories and sell more products. Your taking things out of context and dealing with physiological theories from an internet quick read standpoint. We could argue things all day, but it really comes down to this, normal adults need 1 gram of protein per KG(2.2lbs) of body weight, adolecents need 1.2-1.5 grams per kg, and athletes need 1.5- 2grams per kg. As I said MOST veggies don't contain protein, and the ones that do WE DO NOT EAT ON A REGULAR BASIS!!!"Amino Acids
Chemical molecules which combine to form the various proteins. There are 22 common amino acids. The human body can synthesize (manufacture) 14 of them. The other 8 must come from the diet and are therefore called essential amino acids. See: Amino Acid Complex " Yes our body certainly produces amino acids, but they need certain micronutrients to be able to synthesize them, it's not like we just have them in our bodies waiting to be used. If you think we can survive on carbs alone just look to the fine medical research the Nazis and Vietnam doctors did with prisoners, did they look like they were living well on amino acids their bodies made? Ahhhh it's too hard to try to teach a blind man to not stare at the sun, I give up trying to simplify what scientists have been trying to understand for 1000 years , just so you can learn something.
Osweld you make my point exactly, your PHD in internet surfing is true, you are an idiot that knows how to look up info, but has really no idea what it means, or what it applies to. Take some time, do some Medline searches on different aspects of nutrition, look at various unbiased sources for your data, look to Dr. Atkins for one side and a Vegan site for another. I have consulted thousands of people on nutrition,health, fitness and lifestyle trends, I have been in the trenches so to speak. I am not someone dealing with an 8th grade biology knowledge.
Of course as with most internet types I am dealing with the ADD personality types that are quick to post, slow to think and probably look like someone who needs some nutrition and fitness advice munching on a bag of chips drinking Coke To argue with a fool is to be a fool yourself so I will quit with my rant.
Stay healthy no matter what concept you think is right.
Mr. Fun, just keep exercising, even if it involves other men and keep tabs with your doctor, live clean and low stress and you should live a long life!!

	23-10-2003 00:32									#35
	Re: I want to change part of my diet. Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by MrFun I want to decrease the amount of meat in my daily diet, and dramatically increase my intake of daily protein through a variety of types of beans.

My bad,

I thought that he was looking for healthy alternatives to meat, which I was attempting to provide....

I guess I must have been mistaken.

	23-10-2003 00:43									#36
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by vlad OMG nice links guys unfortunately they are from whacko diet sites online trying to advance their theories and sell more products.

Well, how about this one then?

http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/ANS00980.html

"FDA APPROVES NEW HEALTH CLAIM FOR SOY PROTEIN AND CORONARY HEART DISEASE
On October 26, 1999, the FDA will authorize use of health claims about the role of soy protein in reducing the risk of coronary heart disease (CHD) on labeling of foods containing soy protein. This final rule is based on the FDA's conclusion that foods containing soy protein included in a diet low in saturated fat and cholesterol may reduce the risk of CHD by lowering blood cholesterol levels."...


..." This new health claim is based on evidence that including soy protein in a diet low in saturated fat and cholesterol may also help to reduce the risk of CHD. Recent clinical trials have shown that consumption of soy protein compared to other proteins such as those from milk or meat, can lower total and LDL-cholesterol levels."

	23-10-2003 00:53									#37
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For some reason this thread has given me major munchie cravings for a nice dhal.

	23-10-2003 00:56									#38
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quote: As I said MOST veggies don't contain protein, and the ones that do WE DO NOT EAT ON A REGULAR BASIS!!!"Amino Acids

What the hell are you talking about? The initial link I provided contain protein values for very common vegetables from carrots to lettuce to mushrooms. That much discredits your lame assertion that MOST OF and MOST COMMON OF the vegetables contain no protein.

quote: Yes our body certainly produces amino acids, but they need certain micronutrients to be able to synthesize them, it's not like we just have them in our bodies waiting to be used. If you think we can survive on carbs alone just look to the fine medical research the Nazis and Vietnam doctors did with prisoners, did they look like they were living well on amino acids their bodies made?

Yeah, lets use the starvation diet of prisoners of war as a standard of comparison. I think you just crossed the fine line between trolling and complete delusion.

quote: Take some time, do some Medline searches on different aspects of nutrition, look at various unbiased sources for your data, look to Dr. Atkins for one side and a Vegan site for another

Nonsense, the burden is on you to support your dietary claims, especially since you so boldly asserted that "most veggies contain no protein". If you're such an expert, back up your claims, which defy most of the conventional thought in the field so it seems.

	23-10-2003 02:04									#39
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Eat less meat and eat more veggies, fruits, and beans + fish to make up for it

At least I think that's what you mean to do

Or, just ONLY eat the regular servings and stuff yourself with lettuce instead of juicy dripping red steak.

	23-10-2003 02:20									#40
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LOL ur just dragging me in deeper and deeper aren't you. ok ok
First off your trying to make it sound like our bodies just come equipped with ammino acids, which they DON'T. Our bodies can produce them, but they still need building blocks to do so. My example was that if we don't supply nutrients and calories we don't have those amminos. Bread and water is a common prisoner issue meal, all carbs no protein, sorry if you felt it was a bad example.
As far as veggies go lets take a look at this issue. Here is a list of common veggies that have less than 1 gram of protein per LARGE serving:
Artichoke,green beans,celery,cucumbers,onions,peppers,pumpkin,radi
sh,tomato,turnip,lettuce

less than 4 grams:
Aparagus,broccoli,cabbage Cauliflower,eggplant,mushroom,peas,potato,spinach,
yam,corn,brussels

Ok so you have me over a barrel here, they DO contain some protein, as does pretty much anything including dirt, but are the amounts significant? Nope don't think so as you would have to eat 20 servings of a veggie to get as much protein as 1 small cube of steak. I guess I didn't intend my statement to be an exact literal one. The basic statement was based on less than 1 gram meaning none. As with fruit which also have some protein, just less than a gram or none by my language
My point of researching more wasn't directed at you, but at young Osweld, and I hate to tell you this, but I am the conventional thought in the field
So shall we argue some more? Perhaps about nutritional content of peas over beets? How about the positive effect of testosterone on protein synthesis?
What it comes down to is we need protein more than we need carbs in a human diet, in fact we can survive without carbs as long as we have fat and protein, but we can't survive without protein. We also need the essential ammino acids to survive.
Quantum physicists have proven that 98% of the atoms in your body are replaced within one year. In three months your body produces an entirely new skeleton. Every six weeks, all the cells have been replaced in your liver. You have a new stomach lining every five days. You are continually replacing old blood cells with new ones. Every month you produce an entirely new skin as dead cells are shed and new cells grow underneath. The proteins in your muscles are continually turned over as muscle is broken down and new tissue is synthesized. Every cell in your body is constantly being recycled.
Where do all these new cells come from? The answer of course, is from the protein foods you consume every day.
Protein is construction material for the human body like bricks are for a building. Body structures made from protein include skin, hair, nails, bones, connective tissue and of course skeletal muscle. Other proteins in your body include antibodies, enzymes, hormones such as insulin, and transporters such as hemoglobin. Next to water, protein is the most abundant substance in the body, making up approximately 15-20% of your weight. In order for muscle growth to occur, every day you must consume more protein than your body utilizes.
Now that I am here we might as well also discuss the Biological value of proteins. Although one gram of protein will contain four calories in all cases, the amount of protein which our body can digest and use for muscle building purposes is not always 100%. In fact, the most easily digestible natural protein source are whole eggs, where the percentage net utilization by our bodies is 94%. Because eggs contain the best protein digestion rate of any natural source, eggs are given a protein rating of '100' and all other protein containing food sources are rated according to how digestible they are compared to egg protein.
The Biological Value (BV) is a scale of measurement used to determine what percentage of a given nutrient source is utilized by the body. The scale is most frequently applied to protein sources, particularly whey protein. Biological Value is derived from providing a measure intake of protein, then determining the nitrogen uptake versus nitrogen excretion. The theoretical highest BV of any food source is 100%. In short - BV refers to how well and how quickly your body can actually use the protein you consume.

Below is a list of various sources of protein and their respective ratings.

FOOD PROTEIN RATING
Eggs (whole) 100
Eggs (whites) 88
Chicken / Turkey 79
Fish 70
Lean Beef 69
Cow's Milk 60
Brown Rice 57
White Rice 56
Soybeans 47
Whole-grain Wheat 44
Peanuts 43
Dry Beans 34
White Potato 34

Well hopefully that is enough info for you to digest(all pun intended)!

	23-10-2003 02:43									#41
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vlad's entirely right that a purely carbohydrate diet won't lead to a long, healthy life with many plumb grandchildren. Bread and water diets tend to, um, kill. Humans can produce most amino acids themselves but there are those pesky essential ones that we can't produce cause they were in such abundance in the environment we evolved in that it was a useless biochemical-energy expense to synthesise them internally.

Carbs are just boring repeating rings of carbon-hydrogen groups with a few oxygens to link it all together. Very good for energy since they're easily metabolised (mmmm, all those high-energy electrons in the C-H bonds really get ATPsynthase going in the mitochondria. The electron transfer chain is truly a beautiful piece of biomolecular engineering). Fats are good for long term energy storage since they're basically loooooong repeating chains of C-H bonds and come less oxidised than carbs do.

Now amino acids are different cause they're not just carbon, oxygen, and hydrogen like everything else (we'll ignore the pesky phosphate requirements for some triglycyride fats). They are built containing nitrogen and, sorry folks, you can eat all the carbs, water, and chant Hari Krishna all you want but without nitrogen in your diet, you ain't metabolising amino acids.

Now, most veg isn't known for it's fabulous protein benefits. They're great for fibre, vitamins, and bulk material but plants don't use protein in the same fashion animals do. You need to consume more vegetables to get the same protein a smaller amount of meat gives you. Think about it, how much salad would you need to munch on to equal the protein in a hamburger? The dense muscle structure of animal flesh is basically protein and fat. Beans, legumes, and stuff like that however, contain lots of happy protein and nitrogen cause they're (well, not them exactly but symbiotic root nodule bacteria) are atmospheric nitrogen fixers.

The Western diet probably has too much of everything in it. When was the last time you saw someone with scurvy? Protein deficiency? People could cut back on their meat quite a bit and still not have to worry about not getting enough protein. Yummy soybeans are one of the few complete protein carriers (ie, contains all essential amino acids). I really want a bowl of beans and curry rice now....

Speaking of things that the Westerner-gaijin gets too much of, vitamins. Eeek, those supplements go waaay beyond what's recommended and, I'm sorry, that stuff isn't all goodness and light. They're complex chemicals that need to be in equilibrium and just pushing more and more into your body is not the way to go about it. I mean, WHAT ARE YOU THINKING PEOPLE, that vitamin C is the distilled juice of angels and bright eyed idealistic puppies? You don't go around eating iron nails so why pop back huge amounts of vitamins?

Not really sure what the point of this post is anymore. Um. Eat a balanced diet. Cut back on reduced C-H bonds. Drink water. Don't trust Whitey.

	23-10-2003 02:57									#42
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quote: Yes our body certainly produces amino acids, but they need certain micronutrients to be able to synthesize them, it's not like we just have them in our bodies waiting to be used.

erm, IIRC, you're wrong. The body can synthesize amino acids only from other amino acids, and even not all of those ( there are 3 that the human body must recieve ). This certainly isnt like the fat-carbohydrate conversion.

	23-10-2003 03:25									#43
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quote: Originally posted by centrifuge Quinoa is definitely a great food, but I still have to give the nod to soybeans http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshe...523,105,00.html espescially if you are worried about cholosterol "Soy protein is the only vegetable whose protein is complete. In fact, soy protein has attracted quite a bit of attention recently due to its ability to lower LDL ("bad" cholesterol) levels." This is only one of soy's numerous benefits, which include cancer prevention and... ". Soybeans are high in protein (more than any other legume) and fiber, low in carbohydrates and are nutrient-dense. Phytochemicals in soybeans protect the heart against oxidation, inhibit blood clot formation, function as antioxidants and also exert anti-inflammatory actions. Soybeans, compared with other legumes, are higher in essential fatty acids, and are a good source of calcium, magnesium, lecithin, riboflavin, thiamin, fiber, folate (folic acid), and iron." Plus the variety of products made from it are unparralleled. http://www.wholehealthmd.com/refshe...523,135,00.html

The problem is though, I tried soybean burgers from the frozen grocery section once, and I HATED the taste of them. Yes -- I DID take them home first, and cooked them before eating them -- smartasses.

So I guess I want to know -- can soybeans actually be tasteful if prepared in different ways??

	23-10-2003 03:27									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko bah! nothing beats quinoa: http://momo.essortment.com/quinoanutrition_rhwz.htm Nutritionists have discovered that quinoa is low in sugar and starch and high in fiber and unsaturated fats. It contains many essential vitamins and minerals. The thing that has the experts most excited, however, is the amount of protein in quinoa. It does, in fact, contain fifty percent more protein than wheat, rice and barley and that protein is of superior quality. It contains an ideal balance of the amino acids that are needed by the human body. It includes the amino acid lysine which is rarely found in vegetable protein and normally only found in meat, fish and eggs. Quinoa is also a good source of phosphorous, calcium, iron, vitamin E and several of the B vitamins. ---- Quinoa has a unique, nutty taste. It is ideal as a breakfast cereal. It can also be used as an addition to a cold salad, served hot with meals or sweet as a dessert. Quinoa can also be ground into flour form. The flour can then be mixed with water to provide a nutritious meal on the run. The flour can also be made into energy rich biscuits and bread. The people of the Andes also boil the quinoa with an egg to provide a healthy meal. Tortillas are even made with quinoa.

Boshko, I am definitely open to trying this type of food, but alas, since I live in the UNsophisticated midwest, would I have trouble finding this food item in the usual grocery store?

	23-10-2003 04:02									#45
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by vlad My point of researching more wasn't directed at you, but at young Osweld, and I hate to tell you this, but I am the conventional thought in the field

I've been vegetarian for 2 years now. I'm living, breathing, proof that you can easily get enough protein without meat.

Yes, you don't get as much protein out of vegetables as you do out of meat, but you don't need that much. A single cheese burger can provide more then two thirds your daily need. But we're not talking about a diet of strictly vegetables, anyways. (and I don't know where you got that water and bread diet from ) There's also grains, beans, and dairy - all of which provide protein. Especially beans and dairy. Cooked vegetables also provide a good deal more protein then you seem to think.

But in MrFun's case, he's still eating meat anyways. He doesn't have to worry about protein at all.

	23-10-2003 04:31									#46
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Here is some more jibber jabber for you guys on aminos and protein. Perhaps an easier explanation on a difficult topic.
Foods that contain a balanced combination of all the essential and nonessential amino acids in the exact amounts required by the body for growth are called "complete proteins." In order for the body to synthesize muscle, all the essential amino acids must be available simultaneously. Any non-essential amino acids that are in short supply can be produced by the liver, but if an essential amino acid is missing, the body must break down its own proteins to obtain it. To prevent muscle cell breakdown, dietary protein must supply all the essential amino acids. If your diet is missing any essential amino acids, protein synthesis will be inhibited.

Carbohydrates have a storage depot in the body called glycogen. Glycogen can be stored in the muscles and liver and then drawn upon hours or even days later when it is needed. Proteins cannot be stored in the body. There is only a very small and transient amino acid pool in the bloodstream. To maintain the optimal environment for muscle growth (positive nitrogen balance), complete proteins must be eaten with every meal.
The smallest units of a protein are called amino acids. Like bricks in a wall, amino acids are the building blocks of protein. Just as glycogen is formed from the linkage of numerous glucose molecules, proteins are formed from the joining of numerous amino acids. There are 20 amino acids that are required for growth by the human body. From these 20 amino acids, there are tens of thousands of different protein molecules that can be formed. Each protein is assembled from the bonding of different amino acids into various configurations. Growth hormone, for example, is a protein chain of 156 amino acids.

"Amino acids are somewhat like letters in the alphabet. If you had only the letter G, all you could write would be a string of Gs: G-G-G-G-G-G-G-G. But with 20 different letters available, you could create poems, songs, or novels. The 20 amino acids can be linked together in an even greater variety of sequences than are possible for letters in a word or words in a sentence. The variety of possible sequences for polypeptide chains is tremendous." -Eleanor Whitney and Sharon Rolfes, "Understanding Nutrition."
Protein isn't just found in meat, eggs and milk. There is also protein in vegetables, beans, legumes, and grains. However, the protein in these foods is not considered "complete" because it lacks one or more of the essential amino acids. Generally speaking, proteins from vegetable sources are lower in quality. The complete proteins are those that come from animal sources such as eggs, milk and meat.

Many grains and legumes contain substantial amounts of protein, but none provide the full array of essential amino acids. Beans, for example, are high in protein , however, they are missing the essential amino acid Methionine. Similarly, grains are lacking the essential amino acid Lysine. It has been frequently pointed out that combining two incomplete sources of vegetable protein such as rice and beans provides you with the full complement of essential amino acids.

	23-10-2003 04:37									#47
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Osweld I am glad to hear you are a healthy vegan, as much as I am not for that, I am always glad to see anyone make a decision based on their health and hopefully not just on a hatred of animal death.
So did you lose any weight in 2 years? Gain any muscle? Skin color change? Do you find your cravings have changed? Do you use more salt? I am always looking for real world info so fill me in, ummm whoops better not say that around Mr. Fun

Hey Mr. Fun do you still live in Iowa? If you get to Madison,WI, go to the big health food store right before the UW campus starts, you will be able to get quinoa there for sure!!!

	23-10-2003 04:51									#48
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun The problem is though, I tried soybean burgers from the frozen grocery section once, and I HATED the taste of them. Yes -- I DID take them home first, and cooked them before eating them -- smartasses. So I guess I want to know -- can soybeans actually be tasteful if prepared in different ways??

I think so. My usual intake is from chocolate soy milk

You do have to be creative with soybean foods, such as tofu. Tofu is relatively tastless in its "natural" form, but easilly soaks up the flavors of anything that you put it in. It works really well in soups for example.

Search around, I'm sure that you can find numerous recipes that will suit you tastes.

	23-10-2003 05:00									#49
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quote: Originally posted by vlad Osweld I am glad to hear you are a healthy vegan, as much as I am not for that, I am always glad to see anyone make a decision based on their health and hopefully not just on a hatred of animal death. So did you lose any weight in 2 years? Gain any muscle? Skin color change? Do you find your cravings have changed? Do you use more salt? I am always looking for real world info so fill me in, ummm whoops better not say that around Mr. Fun

First, I'm not vegan, I'm vegetarian (But I do eat only a fraction of the dairy I used to, and going vegan is one of my long term goals) and I didn't make the switch for health reasons, nor 'for a hatred of animal death'. I made the switch due to a wide range of ethical and political beliefs. I've lost alot of weight. I haven't kept track of how much, but none of my clothes fit anymore and I've started using a belt for the first time in my life. But I'm not all skin and bones - I've still got some meat on me and a visible stomach. I don't know about muscles, I'm not a very athletic person in the first place, but I do seem to be more energenic and less lazy then i used to be. I don't use more salt, although now that you mention it, I do get the ocasional salt craving every now and then. And my skin is as pale as it's ever been.

	23-10-2003 05:08									#50
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quote: Originally posted by vlad Bread and water is a common prisoner issue meal, all carbs no protein, sorry if you felt it was a bad example.

Since it's a strawman, yes, it's a bad example. That's like saying you're full of **** because anyone knows that eating nothing but butter all day will kill you.

	23-10-2003 05:14									#51
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Since it's a trawman, yes, it's a bad example. That's like saying you're full of **** because anyone knows that eating nothing but butter all day will kill you.

Actually Che if you ate nothing but butter you would not die. The gas would be awful, but you would live better than a diet of chips

	23-10-2003 05:17									#52
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How does vlad manage to politicize a topic like daily nutrition??

	23-10-2003 05:43									#53
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun How does vlad manage to politicize a topic like daily nutrition??

Yes how does he manage to do that? Hmmm Vlad and politics is like Peanut butter and ham, both tasty subjetcs, but seldom talked about as a combination

	23-10-2003 07:31									#54
	Remove this text

um . . .

okaaaaay . . .

everyone slowly step away from vlad before they get hurt.