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Marquis de Sodaq
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... no, a Marquis.
Jul 2000
time: 23:12
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While punishing the AI in the Delunda Sunt challenge (in the Strategy forum), an odd this happened - odd, to me at least, because I've not seen it before. I'd captured many cities and was in monarchy, and the martial law worked in reverse! This is while playing as the Seleucids, with the Hanging Gardens still in effect. I had approximately 30 cities.
In some size 2 cities, my citizens were actually happier while their sons and husbands were off to war than while they were stationed at home. With a chariot and phalanx defending the town, there was one happy citizen (HG), and one unhappy citizen. When the chariot rode off to slay Celts, the unhappy citizen became content. When the chariot died, the unhappy citizen became content. Apparently these were not very popular units...
This happened in several cities. Due to the race against the clock, I didn't spend much time testing. Does anyone have an explanation?
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"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon
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Marquis de Sodaq
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... no, a Marquis.
Jul 2000
time: 23:12
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I didn't think 30 or so cities was ICS... I thought this meant scores more than I had. Anyway, it didn't seem like more than a normal game. Maybe it's just perception, but I think I usually have 30 to 40 cities in my normal quasi-perfectionism. Not intended, you know - this advanced tribe needs a port, how about one 2 squares from their capitol, oh and another on this gold mountain, and so on. This was the first time I'd seen the "happy to see them off" effect. Maybe because of all those colluseums I normally build...
This has been discussed in threads, I even did a search before posting. Just didn't think it applied - how many cities do ICSers settle in a game?
And if it turns out I ICS, have 8000g in the coffers, AND build everything under the sun, discover a new advance every other turn, - maybe I'm a better player than I'd thought...
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"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon
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DaveV
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USA - EDT (GMT-5)
Jan 1970
time: 00:12
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Study the "happy" window in the city screen to learn about how citizens are made happier. The order in which the various measures are applied is a key element of the process. That order is:
1. Luxuries
2. Improvements
3. Martial Law
4. Wonders
Two luxuries will convert a very unhappy citizen to happy, as EST reported. Elvis or some luxuries will allow your city to have a happy first citizen regardless of the number of garrison troops. In the case of HG, though, a martial law unit may change that very unhappy citizen to merely unhappy, and HG will now change him to content instead of happy.
As to the troops' effect not being shown in the happiness window: I think that display isn't always exactly right. I used to think that happiness measures became somehow less effective, but I think it's just a display problem. One martial law unit can change a very unhappy into an unhappy, but he cannot be changed to content by martial law alone.
Some examples of how I keep size two cities happy:
Red, blue: one (or more) units (or HG) changes to blue, blue.
Red, red: two (or more) units change to blue, blue. One unit changes to blue, red, then HG changes to blue, blue.
Black, red: two (or more) units change to red, blue. HG will change to blue, blue. One unit changes to red, red; HG will change to blue, red (riots). With no units, HG will change to cyan, red (city is content).
Black, black: two (or more) units change to red, red. HG will change to blue, red (riots). One unit changes to black, red. HG will change to cyan, red (content). With no units, HG will change to cyan, black (content).
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:12
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The happiness stuff summary:
I have tried to sort out things about the happiness, could more experienced players look if they are correct?
The effect of happinness items is provided in steps. There are steps of three types:
two positive: | A. "luxury" type: | | | | if C or VU exist then | | C, VU -> H | | else | if U exists then | | U -> C | this is probably a bug, the idea was probably | | if C exists then | | C -> H | | else | if U exists then | | U -> C | | else | if VU exists then | | VU -> U |
| B. "temple" type: | | | | if VU exists then | | VU -> U | | else | if U exists then | | U -> C | and one negative: | C. "unit in the field" type: | | | | if H exists then | | H -> C | | else | if C exists then | | C-> U | (VU - very unhappy, U - unhappy, C - content, H - happy)
| "luxury" type: | | luxuries, Courthouse and Palace in democracy, Hanging gardens, Cure for cancer | | "temple" type: | | improvements, Bach, Shakespeare, martial law (without VU->C) | | "unit in the field" type: | | units in the field | The order is done in accordance with the city window:
1. specialists are taken (they are chosen from H and VU preferentially),
2. luxuries,
3. improvements (incl. Michelangelo)
4. units (martial law or unit in the field)
5. wonders
Individual items have multi-step effect: For example temple with mysticism causes that the step B. is executed two times (and so two VU are not changed to U but one VU is changed to C). Shakespeare is executed (city size + 1) times (i.e. needn't turn all citizens content).
Luxuries may do max. <city size> steps. Hanging Gardens may do max. <city size> steps (in the city where it was built).
The martial law may do max. <city size> steps and max. once on each citizen (in other words the martial law can't change a citizen from VU to C, only to U). Sometimes the happiness analysis window shows no effect by the martial law (if at least one VU is present ?), but this is not true.
Bach has no effect if at least 2 VU are present
Many units in the field causes all citizens to be U under republic, but always let one citizen C in democracy. Specialists are always C, no effect of happiness items.
This post has been edited several times.
Last edited by SlowThinker on 27-08-2002 at 23:15
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveV
As to the troops' effect not being shown in the happiness window: I think that display isn't always exactly right. I used to think that happiness measures became somehow less effective, but I think it's just a display problem. One martial law unit can change a very unhappy into an unhappy, but he cannot be changed to content by martial law alone.
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I am sorry, I didn't read this carrefuly. I will rebuild my last post probably.
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:12
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The long post is finished now.
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:12
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An addition: luxuries may do max. {city size} steps.
Do you know the order the Wonders takes effect? By the order in the rules.txt file?
It would be good if HG and Cure for C. acts as first so that black hats remain black.
Edited: the first sentence
Last edited by SlowThinker on 01-11-2001 at 02:24
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveV
It's also why JSBC is so beloved by democratic players: it will act to cancel out the unhappiness from one unit in the field, while MC's effects will be undone by units in the field. |
But the placement of the MC to the "temple" stage has a negative effect only if a part of MC's effect is redundant, hasn't it?
Last edited by SlowThinker on 02-11-2001 at 03:53
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DaveV
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USA - EDT (GMT-5)
Jan 1970
time: 00:12
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quote:
Originally posted by SlowThinker
But the placement of the MC to the "temple" stage has a negative effect only if a part of MC's effect is redundant, hasn't it? |
An example: size 7 city under democracy, deity level, number of cities is under the first riot factor threshold. 1 content, 6 unhappy. 6 cups convert to 1 happy, 1 content, 5 unhappy. Temple + MC convert to 1 happy, 6 content. A unit in the field converts to 1 happy, 4 content, 2 unhappy; city riots.
But, if you add JSBC, its effects are added in after the penalty for having units afield, and it will change the city back to 1 happy, 6 content.
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveV
An example: size 7 city under democracy, deity level, number of cities is under the first riot factor threshold. 1 content, 6 unhappy. 6 cups convert to 1 happy, 1 content, 5 unhappy. Temple + MC convert to 1 happy, 6 content. A unit in the field converts to 1 happy, 4 content, 2 unhappy; city riots.
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But if the MC would act under the "wonders" stage in place of the "temple" stage, then the result would be equal in your example:
temple converts to 1H 3C 3U
unit in the field 0H 3C 4U (I disagree with you, units in the field turns H to C preferably. But it has no meaning in our example)
MC converts to 0H 6C 1U, city riots.
Only if the city would be of size 6, then 1 positive step of MC would be lost in the "temple" stage (the city would riot) but wouldn't be lost if used in the "wonder" stage.
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveV
Mike's is treated as a cathedral and applied at the "temple" stage. All other happy wonders are applied in a fourth, "wonder" stage. |
But works Gardens and Cure for Cancer before Bach and Shakespeare?
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:12
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I have run some tests to find out which cities get additional red/ I have run some tests to find out which cities get additional red/black hats due to too many of cities: | | despotism | | number of cities | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | | | | | | | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | +8 | +7 | +6 | +5 | | | | | | | | | | | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | | | | | | | | | | | 6 | 5 | +4 | +3 | +2 | +1 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | 10 | 9 | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | +11 | +12 | | | | | monarchy | | number of cities | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | | | | | | | | | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | +12 | +11 | | | | | | | | | | | | 9 | 8 | 7 | +6 | +5 | | | | | | | | | | | | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | How to read the table:
For example, under despotism, when you build your 10th city, city nr. 7 gets black hat, city nr. 10 gets red hat, city nr. 3 gets black hat. It looks the system is understandable.
Who will add other governments?
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Julius Brenzaida
It has definitely something to do with mapsize and the number of citizens. Indeed if you have, let's say 5 cities on despotism and they grow red and black hats come quickly. You have to be careful at the beginning of games, not to grow too fast before getting monarchy or republic. |
My goal is to be able determine the city where I can expect riots after building a new city.
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:12
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About the question which cities get additional red/black hats due to too many of cities:
After my past tests, recent reading of A pattern governing supply and demand changes and changes of happiness after English were destroyed by Zulus (and so one city was destroyed) I have a feeling that there may be a pattern based on all cities (from every civ) in the game.
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:12
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After reading A pattern governing supply and demand changes , I realized that the Civ2 engine work also with a list of all cities of all civs. So I run some tests that ended up in the following results. Tests were done in deity.
Please verify it, I tested extensively only despotism. Unhappiness due to number of cities (UDNC) is an additional kind of unhappiness above the base unhappiness (base unhappiness = 2nd unhappy citizen in each city in deity, 3rd unhappy citizen in emperor etc.). It is supposed an extra unhappiness may be caused also due to large cities. Arrangements
The Civ2 engine maintains a list of all cities of all civs in the order in which they were created as the game was played. For every city I will name this numerical order as the all-inclusive city number (ACN).
There is also the order in which your own cities were built: this is represented by the city number (CN).
Please don't confuse ACN (placings among cities of all civs) with CN (placings among your own cities). I will use an abbreviation C for a content citizen (a blue hat), U for a unhappy citizen (a red hat), VU for a very unhappy citizen (a black hat). I will suppose cities are 1-sized, so the term citizen will always be equal to the first citizen. Every new city created by your civilization may cause UDNC in one or more your cities. The question is 'in which cities?' There is a pattern that says in which cities the new city with a given CN causes an unhappiness. The pattern depends only on ACNs of your cities:
The effect of governments
Communism and fundamentalism have no UDNC.
Each other government has its own government constant (GC). This number is equal to the maximal number of cities that have never an UDNC: | government | GC | | anarchy | 4 | | despotism | 4 | | monarchy | 6 | | communism | - | | fundamentalism | - | | republic | 8 | | democracy | 10 | Now let us see despotism for example. Cities are divided in 4 groups: Group 1 are cities with CN 1-4, group 2are cities with CN 5-8, group 3 are cities with CN 9-12, group 4 are cities with CN>12. Step 1) Base unhappiness (in cities of groups 3 and 4)
Every city in group 3 gets an U citizen, every city in group 4 gets an VU citizen. Step 2) Additional unhappiness (caused by cities of groups 2 and 3)
First steps 2a) and 2b) are processed for group 2, then again for group 3. Cities of group 2 cause citizens to be U, cities of group 3 cause citizens to be VU.
(Group 1 causes no unhappiness. Group 4 causes no unhappiness too, because all citizens are already VU.) Step 2a)
The added unhappiness is determined by the following table. This is the pattern similar to 'xxxo' known from Oedo years etc. Each city falls into one of 4 categories; cities from every category get additional unhappiness together.
(Realize that only some of cities listed in the lowest row are yours. Naturally foreign cities get no unhappiness from creating your own cities.)
| | group 2 | group 3 | | kind of additional unhappiness | U | VU | | CN of city that causes unhappiness | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | | ACN of cities that get unhappiness | 4, 8, 12, 16, 20... | 3, 7... | 2, 6... | 1, 5... | 4, 8... | 3, 7... | 2, 6... | 1, 5... | Step 2b)
Rule 1 must be effective. So cities that didn't get any additional unhappiness from Step 2a) get unhappiness too, furthermore immediately after creating. Rule 1)
After creating first 4 cities all citizens must be C, after creating first 8 cities all citizens must be U, after creating first 12 cities all citizens must be VU.
An example: Suppose all cities are yours, so CN=ACN for every city.
Cells with citizens that became U (red hat) are red, cells with citizens that became VU (black hat) are black. For example when you build your 9th city under despotism, city nr. 9 gets red hat, cities nr. 4 and 8 get black hat. | despotism | | group 1 | group 2 | group 3 | | | CN of city that causes unhappiness | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | | Step 1 | CN of cities that get unhappiness | | | | | | | | | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | | Step 2a | ACN (=CN) of cities that get unhappiness | | | | | 4 | 3 | 2, 6 | 1, 5 | 4, 8 | 3, 7 | 2, 6, 10 | 1, 5, 9 | | Step 2b | CN of cities that get unhappiness | | | | | | | 7 | 8 | | | 11 | 12 | | monarchy | | group 1 | group 2 | group 3 | | | CN of city that causes unhappiness | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | | Step 1 | CN of cities that get unhappiness | | | | | | | | | | | | | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | | Step 2a | ACN (=CN) of cities that get unhappiness | | | | | | | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3, 9 | 2, 8 | 1, 7 | 6, 12 | 5, 11 | 4, 10 | 3, 9, 15 | 2, 8,14 | 1, 7, 13 | | Step 2b | CN of cities that get unhappiness | | | | | | | | | | 10 | 11 | 12 | | | 15 | 16 | 17 | 1 8 |
Remaining work:
All tests were done with cities of size 1. Large cities may cause an additional extra unhappiness.
What happens if a city is destroyed, then another city is build (own or foreign)?
Tests were done for deity only.
Last edited by SlowThinker on 25-02-2003 at 05:13
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:12
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DrSpike,
Hm, I didn't think about utilization very much yet. (Also there may be still some errors. I am waiting for some confirmation)
You must know the ACNs of your cities. From the point where you build Marco Polo it is easy (only problem may be formerly destroyed cities - they may shuffle the order). Without MPE it will be more difficult. Especially for the first city with an unhappy citizen due to empire size (city nr. 5 under despotism) you have no clue. But once you know the effect of the city nr. 5 you know which city have ACN=4 (or 8 or 12 - it depends also on the number of civs in the game). Then you can guess which city have ACN=3 and so will be the next one.
From other side you may find out the ACNs of your cities from the way how cities get red and black hats and then use the knowledge of ACNs for commodities S&D changes.
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21-05-2001 18:51
. How do we keep AIs under control and keep from being killed off? we leave them caged up in one city, and prevent them from escaping - hense being called a zoo 
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