27-10-2003 23:19									#31
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I usually get 1 GL the whole game (but I'm a pretty peaceful player)... playing a current game with the French for the first time and I have had 9 GL so far. All were generated by horse/knights/calvary...

I'm kicking bottom this game and this is the only reason why - hard to lose when you use the first for an army and the other 8 for Wonders. Even built Leonardos which I never build 'cause I had a spare leader and thought I might get another later when I needed him for ToE (which, of course, I did - and one for Hoover too!).

Now if it wasn't so time consuming to ship forces to nearest rude continent (Celts/Russians warring with me) I'd have cleared up long before now...

	28-10-2003 00:39									#32
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I am begining to rethink my Leader Fishing strategy. I really belives in getting the Leader/Army/Heroic Epic triad as soon as possible. I think is is as very important, along with rexing and tech trading. So, I am going to go back to the sword rush and forget about horses until knights come around. I'll see if that works better.

	28-10-2003 15:48									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Stuie Actually, they were all killed. It was the AI's turn, and I had foolishly left a bunch of elites alone in the open (as in, they were not stacked together). I lost six or seven elite units, with three of them generating GL's before their demise. It was a sad sight.

LOL ok that's a great alternative method to secure multiple leaders in one turn.

	28-10-2003 19:25									#34
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You can always try fanes7 way of generating 6 GL with 5 units...

	29-10-2003 22:17									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Mountain Sage You can always try fanes7 way of generating 6 GL with 5 units...

Nuther: I am also a BIG believer in the "holy trinity" (leader/army/HE). Although Arrian seems to have success without t, I believe it is still the best way to go for generating leaders (oops didn't see that Army for leader #2 ).

Thesus: I agree with you about the use of slow movers, but you forgot to mention one of the most important points---Bombardment units are very useful for generating GL's. Taking off just one or two HP's on your target will lead to a longer life for your elites, also make sure you protect them with defensive units. A stack with 10 Slowmovers , 5 bombardment (use catapults only on defense or in open ground) , 5 defenders, and a couple elites will lead you to at least one or two leaders.


Protect your elites, use defenders to protect them, send them back to heal, the AI loves to attack unprotected elites. The longer the elite is alive (and fighting) the better your chances for a GL.

Unless you do not have many elites; upgrade them when possible. a vet Cav is much better overall than a elite horse. When it becomes impractical to attack with an elite (horse/pike; knight/rifle; cav/inf) it is time to think about doing something else with the unit (upgrade or disband is prefered)

	29-10-2003 23:42									#36
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The HE is a luxury. If I feel I can afford it, I will build an army and then build the HE. But if my options are Pyramids or Army, it's Pyramids every time. If it's Palace move/FP rush or Army, again, the Palace move is much more important.

Where it gets tricky is getting a leader after the Pyramids are built, but before you're in position to move your Palace/rush the FP. Do you hold the leader until you fight your way to the appropriate city, or do you build an army, and hope for another leader for the palace move? In that situation, I take stock of 3 things:

1) How many elite units do I currently have?
2) Am I militaristic (how many more elites will I likely get)?
3) How much more fighting will I be doing between now and when I will be ready for that palace move?

If I'm playing a militaristic civ, have a bunch of elites, and have a long list of targets, I'll build the army. Otherwise, I'll hang on to the leader, hold my elites out of battle, and march straight for the city I want my Palace in.

-Arrian

	29-10-2003 23:43									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian 8) cavalry. Leader used on Universal Suffrage. My legionaries have fought approximately 5 offensive battles in that game. -Arrian

Hmmmmm, after your Legionaries finished Universal Suffrage, did they request a budget increase for weapons development?

"Sire, I realize times are tough but could you possibly see to utilizing one of these new factories of the Industrial Age to manufacture something a little more lethal than our leather armor and gladius swords?"

	29-10-2003 23:47									#38
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quote: Unless you do not have many elites; upgrade them when possible. a vet Cav is much better overall than a elite horse. When it becomes impractical to attack with an elite (horse/pike; knight/rifle; cav/inf) it is time to think about doing something else with the unit (upgrade or disband is prefered)

Heh, speaking of luxuries, I hang on to those elites. Even if I'm fighting with Industrial Age units against a relatively advantaced foe, you better believe they will trot out some longbowmen and/or medieval infantry (defense 1, defense 2). Elite horsies can kill those units, especially if I've pounded them to 1hp with arty (which I do). I've gotten a lot of GLs that way (mmm, instaHoover).

If I was in a difficult fight (playing on Emperor instead of Monarch, let's say), it's different. Not that the AI doesn't still bring those longbowmen and med infs to the party, but they have more of the good units and I will need all the Cav I can get.

-Arrian

	29-10-2003 23:54									#39
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@GhengisFarb: Your point is well taken. Ironically enough, the gladius is one of the deadliest weapons in the whole history of mankind. In a certain respect, there are very few things more lethal.

@arrian: Just curious, what level do you pay at?

	30-10-2003 00:40									#40
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Monarch, nuther, with occasional forays up to Emperor.

GF - Well, when the legionary generated its leader, I didn't yet have replaceable parts, so the only upgrade possibility would have been med infs. I had some of those. I had plenty of hitting power, since I had cavalry. The legionaries were helping my muskets with stack defense. I was invading Greece, and their best attack units were med infs/longbows. Thus the legionaries weren't obselete.

Later, when I got replaceable parts, I still didn't upgrade the legionaries. Legionaries look much cooler than guerillas, and I had no need for more firepower anyway. I had a bunch of infantry & cavalry. The legionaries were just hanging around at that point, just looking cool.

-Arrian

	30-10-2003 01:57									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The legionaries were just hanging around at that point, just looking cool. -Arrian

Hehe to me that seems to be "looking cool, costing money".

	30-10-2003 02:22									#42
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True, but since I was playing on Monarch, had control of 90% of a 5-civ continent (and control of another 1-civ island for its luxury), and had good palace/fp placement, money wasn't a concern.

-Arrian

	30-10-2003 02:29									#43
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Someday I will play a game as Rome and try to conquer the world with just Legions for troops. I will still use arty though, but not knights, cav, tanks, etc. But, then again, it might just become an exercise in tedium.

	30-10-2003 06:31									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The legionaries were just hanging around at that point, just looking cool. -Arrian

Arrian and his civ of male model Legionaries.....

	30-10-2003 06:33									#45
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Arrian and his civ of male model Legionaries.....

Great, I'll try not to remember that....

	30-10-2003 10:23									#46
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It's in one of the other recent threads, but damn, I feel the same way about Legions... (Samurai too).

They are just cool, mofo, all-purpose bastards, and deserve an honor guard role till the end of the game. Prolly the only units I will NOT upgrade when *-ed and too late for an Army... "Maximus*" stationed in Theseusium is just too satisfying.

	30-10-2003 17:46									#47
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And that's why I always go back and play the Romans - practically every other game.

On Topic! In my current game with the Romans, I've created six or seven GLs. That's getting close to an all-time high for me, and I'm just starting the Industrial Age.

	31-10-2003 05:29									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Heh, speaking of luxuries, I hang on to those elites. Even if I'm fighting with Industrial Age units against a relatively advantaced foe, you better believe they will trot out some longbowmen and/or medieval infantry (defense 1, defense 2). Elite horsies can kill those units, especially if I've pounded them to 1hp with arty (which I do). I've gotten a lot of GLs that way (mmm, instaHoover). If I was in a difficult fight (playing on Emperor instead of Monarch, let's say), it's different. Not that the AI doesn't still bring those longbowmen and med infs to the party, but they have more of the good units and I will need all the Cav I can get. -Arrian

Wether to upgrade elites depends upon the amount of elites you have and your strength compared to your foes. Certainly I would not upgrade an elite Horse or Knight if I only had a few elites, but after I had a few campaigns and start to get a growing number of elites then I feel its better to upgrade (they are only one promotion from elite status after all) Also if I was fighting a strong opponet then I would have to upgrade and could not afford the luxury of waiting to attack a crippled unit. Finally, what good is an elite horse when I have 20 elite cav to enter the fray?

	31-10-2003 06:02									#49
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The only times I've generated more than 2 GLs in a single turn have been done with Modern Armor. Those are some Leader generating machines.

	31-10-2003 19:04									#50
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MA are the ultimate leader generators, definitely. Tanks come in second.

Honorable mention, however, to the bombard units that often make it possible. Truely babying your elites involves blasting their opponent with cats/cannon/arty first, and then attacking. I often don't bother with cats & cannon, and need to remind myself every so often to take time to build a couple of cats early on... you only need 2 or 3 of them to make your elites practically invincible (when attacking units in the open. Cities are different).

New game last night, messing around with Japan. 3 leaders so far. 1 from a warrior (GROG!). Grog died the next turn, though 2 from archers. Pyramids, FP, Hanging Gardens. Clearly, on can question my third choice. Using a leader on the HG? What is Arrian thinking. Well, I'm thinking I've only got 2 luxuries hooked up so far and I have several large cities that could really use that +1 happy face. Plus, the Library has been built already. Also, I've got a reasonable number of elite horsemen now, and as soon as I get them into position, I will begin war #3. The problem is that I'm a Monarchy and am clearly behind the other continent in tech. I got the barb uprisings while researching currency. I still need construction to hit the middle ages, and I also want to get my hands on republic. At least I've finally managed to get some cities built around my FP location (friggin' barbs slowed me down - I had to make sure my settlers were protected properly).

-Arrian

p.s. Grog, in this game, was one very lucky warrior. I was attacking Karakorum with a stack of archers, and got a tad unlucky - losing several archers after redlining the defending spearmen. After redlining 2 or 3 spears, I assumed I had chewed through all the healthy defenders, and now would be mopping up vs. 1 hp spears and/or an archer. So, without waiting to see for sure, I ordered my elite warrior to attack... a regular spearman. My warrior lost 4 straight rolls, and then came roaring back to win 3 straight, killing the spear and generating my first leader. I had just been cursing the RNG for my archer losses, but was then forced to shut up.

	31-10-2003 19:16									#51
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I have been obsessing over Civ a little too much this week, but it occured to me while driving to work today that if you bring a few catapults along with your early fighters, then a cataplut hit can reduce the the amount of battle turns it takes to your elite kill the enemy. This we all know. But what happens next? well your victorious elite in not as DAMAGED as he would have been with out the catapult. The result is he can heal quicker and get back into another battle that much faster. In the end, you will be fighting and survining more battles per unit of time, than without the catapult.

	31-10-2003 20:21									#52
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The main purpose of the catapults is to weaking the unit you're trying to kill with your elite, thus ensuring victory for the elite. If your elite archer attacks a regular spearman on flat ground, there is a reasonable chance that your elite archer could lose. But if that same spearman is beat down to 1hp first, the odds of your elite surviving the battle skyrocket. And yes, this also means that your elites will, by and large, spend less time healing up.

Part of the problem is getting mathematics. I'm often beelining hard for a new government (republic or maybe monarchy) and the AI doesn't tend to research math for a while. I'm often in the thick of battle by the time I get math, and then my mindset is usually "troops, troops, more troops!" and I forget about cats.

-Arrian

	31-10-2003 20:37									#53
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If not expansionist, I go for pottery at 100%. Then I research along the alphabet/writing/construction line. I often end up getting math first. You can trade it for big money, then go on to currency from there. After that I start to look at governments because I have often acquired everything else through trade. So, catapults are avaialbe to me early enough, but I often do not build more than one or two and almost never invade with them. Until now.

	31-10-2003 21:09									#54
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I've been playing Rome a lot, so I start with the alphabet. After a quick detour for pottery at 100%, I'll go writing, CoL, philo, republic. Despotism sucketh monkey balls.

I have used as tradebait in the past, and if I'm willing to wait for the AI to get around to researching philo for me, maybe that would be a good option instead of researching philo myself. But most of the time the AI will go grab Mapmaking (which is important and all, but not as important as republic, to me).

-Arrian