23-10-2003 19:03									#1
	Creating Great Leaders Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I AM PLAYING CIV 3-STANDARD WORLD-ROAMING BARBS-ON MONARCH FOR THE FIRST TIME--MY QUESTION IS IF ANYONE HAS GONE AS LONG AS 30 ELITE VICTORIES FROM THE START OF THE GAME WITHOUT CREATING ANY GL'S--I AM AT 32 RIGHT NOW--COULD I GET 2 OR 3 IN A ROW?--PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF OTHERS HAVE ENCOUNTERED THIS-THANKS

	23-10-2003 19:16									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I went several games before getting my first GL.

Then I got three in one turn. So you never know.

Resisting the temptation of posting a link to fanes7's thread in the Strategy forum....

	23-10-2003 19:19									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

thats the unfortunate part of randomness, can sometimes be too random an event to actually have any abiltiy to count on one appearing. in some games i seem to get one two, in others i have upto 10 or more.

I would prefer the whole combat and GL randomness removed or at least improved, but not being a preogrammer i not sure how easy that would be

	23-10-2003 19:59									#4
	Put an end to popups!

Yes, that is easy to do. I have never counted them, but I have had several games go to within 5-10 turns of ending before I got a leader. I was tempted to let them die, since they we of no use at that point.

	23-10-2003 22:13									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Not sure if you know this, but you can't get a GL from barb killing.

Like the others have said its so random. Some games they are rare until I get cavalry, but that is probably due to my play style more htan anything else, build build build, kill kill kill. Also rapid moving attacks create less for me because my horses are moving to the next target while the elites are usually healing. My current game with the Chinese has probably generated 5-6 leaders with riders alone.

	23-10-2003 23:18									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

If you play until MA, they are the real leader generators as they can attack again and again.
I have always felt that 5-6 is par for a standard map in my games.

	24-10-2003 03:48									#7
	Remove this text

I've often had streaks of 3-4 games without a GL and others where I get one right after cashing in the last one. It evens out in the long run.

	24-10-2003 09:25									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

and of course you can only have one GL at a time, you hav eto use it to eithr rush build or make army before getting another one.

	24-10-2003 14:37									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Rasputin and of course you can only have one GL at a time, you hav eto use it to eithr rush build or make army before getting another one.

Just what I wanted to write-

" Then I got three in one turn. "

you've got to realize that's impossible unless you manage to create an army/rush building immediately upon getting one.

	24-10-2003 19:15									#10
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quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel build build build, kill kill kill.

	24-10-2003 22:19									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Grim Legacy Just what I wanted to write- " Then I got three in one turn. " you've got to realize that's impossible unless you manage to create an army/rush building immediately upon getting one.

I've gotten three or more in one turn as well - by doing precisely what you mentioned: using up the leaders immediately. This tends to be late in the game, so I'll end up using them on things like Airports or Cathedrals or some other relatively expensive improvement for 1-shield cities overseas.

I did, however, once get 2 leaders in the same turn in the medieval age in back-to-back combats which netted me two wonders instantly (I think it was Sun Tzu & Leo's). I had fun with Riders in that game.

-Arrian

	24-10-2003 22:53									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

There's probably nothing more frustrating than unsuccesful leader farming. In one game as the Celts with a hero epic I had 32 elite victories in a row (after I started counting) with no leader. Not too unlikely but still extremely frustrating when you don't have any wonder pre-builds.

I came very close to quiting and uninstalling the game, then perhaps burying the CD in the garden.

I have uninstalled the game once in one fit of rage

	24-10-2003 23:10									#13
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I got 2 GLs in one turn in a sim moves MP game. Only time its ever happened.

	24-10-2003 23:49									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yeah, few things are more frustrating than going out of your way seeking leaders and hitting a run of bad luck.

OPD - I once had a very similar experience with the Celts. I turned an early leader into an army (dumbass, never doing that again - Pyramids always better!) and then went on to clear out my continent (destroying 3 civs) and despite milking those wars for all they were worth, I managed to finally get 1 leader as I destroyed the last civ. By that point, the other continent had been busily building, and I lost the "big three" early medieval wonders. That pissed me off.

-Arrian

	25-10-2003 01:55									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I once had 8 leaders in one turn! Taking out a civ of 50 cities that lacks rubber with 200 tanks (most with previous promotions) will do that. Once tanks and MA come into the battle leaders are not really hard to get, of course they also are not really needed by the time you get them (unless you are going for a spaceship victory)

	25-10-2003 01:58									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I managed to win a domination victory on a large map, meaning lots and lots of war, without getting a single GL that game.

Random indeed.

	25-10-2003 14:19									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I've gotten three or more in one turn as well - by doing precisely what you mentioned: using up the leaders immediately. This tends to be late in the game, so I'll end up using them on things like Airports or Cathedrals or some other relatively expensive improvement for 1-shield cities overseas. I did, however, once get 2 leaders in the same turn in the medieval age in back-to-back combats which netted me two wonders instantly (I think it was Sun Tzu & Leo's). I had fun with Riders in that game. -Arrian

All in all these GLs bring an interesting twist to the game. I'm playing a game right now and by going to war I was allowed to build the Heroic Epic (because my 1st army scored a victory) and even managed to get a couple more leaders in the same war. This was extremely lucky in a contest where there weren't so many units involved at all. As icing on the cake, the opponent Civ then also agreed to peace (+map and a few coins haha) after I had razed only one of his cities.
So in this case, the war was a real boost to my civilization; getting the FP instantly, a wonder and being able to build the Heroic Epic, a wonder which nets a sweet 4 culture points too. Thank you GL's.

	25-10-2003 22:30									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Arrian OPD - I once had a very similar experience with the Celts. I turned an early leader into an army (dumbass, never doing that again - Pyramids always better!) and then went on to clear out my continent (destroying 3 civs) and despite milking those wars for all they were worth, I managed to finally get 1 leader as I destroyed the last civ. By that point, the other continent had been busily building, and I lost the "big three" early medieval wonders. That pissed me off. -Arrian

yeah, especially when the first GL comes surprisingly early and gets your hopes up for a flood of GL's

When ever I get an early GL it goes on a FP as the Epic simply can't be counted on to bring in the GL's and typically one free rush early in the game is more powerful than 2 free rushes later on.

	26-10-2003 00:50									#19
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The world is a random place. Randomness is realistic and good IMO.

	26-10-2003 01:33									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I think I got 8-9 in one turn once. That is the only time I was actually getting sick of GLs. It was such a pain to to pause my attack to run the suckers back to a city and pop an Army.

Course that game I had like 26 empty armies collecting dust in my capital.

	26-10-2003 02:56									#21
	Remove this text

Typing in lower case seems to help...

	26-10-2003 04:18									#22
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yes, typing in lower case is one of the most commonly used methods for generating leaders.

	26-10-2003 04:52									#23
	Leaders Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I am in a real dry spot now. I am Russia and have been fighting almost all game using horsemen and Cossacks. I am researching electricity, have 25 Cossacks, about 8 elites and no leaders yet.

	26-10-2003 06:13									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Typing in lower case seems to help...

hmmmmmmm

	26-10-2003 19:52									#25
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In my last full game, I was the French and got some Elite units while fighting the Aztecs. I saved and retried 3x to get a GL by attacking with them, no dice. Now I am trying to start a game as a Militaristic civ; I have NEVER been able to build the Epic, Academy or Pentagon!

	27-10-2003 04:09									#26
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A tip for generating GLs:

I notice that a lot of people who DON'T get many GLs are using Medieval Era fastmovers. That's fine, and would seem to make sense (retreat capability, upgrades, mobility, etc.) both for general military strategy and for generating GLs.

But actually, that may be the tough way to go about it.

In my view, the tricks to generating GLs are:
1) Fighting a lot of battles. I mean a LOT... 30-40 is not very many. Think in the hundreds. This also means having a LOT of offensive units.
2) Using offensive units with (this is important) the LONGEST period of RELATIVE strength.

My answer? Slowmovers. Among other things, this let's the AI civs build more troops, which is a good thing.

But, importantly, some of them have outstanding duration of relative strength. Specifically:
Immortals
Legions (they get to fight defensive battles as well)
Berserks (6 attack is just scary... and I still suspect that defensive modifiers act differently in amphib assaults)

All three of these get loooong periods of where they kick *ss. And, not needing to be upgraded (come on, really, WTF is an elite Horse good for after Pikes?), it's pretty easy to build up a large force of elites.

Envision sending TWENTY elites in to battle Spears or Pikes.

Rinse, repeat... you get GLs.

	27-10-2003 20:19									#27
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Theseus,

I've been playing Rome at LOT lately, and I must say that the vast majority of the leaders I get are from Archers, Horsemen and Knights - not Legionaries. During the period of the legionaries' relative strength (ancient age), the AI avoids them. It doesn't like attacking legionaries until it has 4-attack units like med inf, longbows or knights. So the only way to get them promoted is to use them on the attack. But I don't often do that, since on the attack they are just swordsmen. I also often hold my legionaries in reserve for a long while to prevent an early GA - and that cuts down on their time to shine. By the time I end up really using them, I often have med infs too - and those guys get to be the "finishers." The legions end up being stack defenders/city garrisons.

Horsemen also have the advantage of keeping up better. When your elite unit fights & is damaged, you then need few turns to rest him up. If this unit(s) is a slowmover, you either need to halt your offensive, or you leave it behind. Granted, I'll often hold up. Horsemen, however, can catch up the main attack stack and get back into the action faster.

In my current game, I've generated 8 GLs. The units:

1) archer. Leader used to move Palace.
2) horseman. Leader used on army.
3) horseman. Leader used on Sistine.
4) horseman. Leader used on Bach.
5) knight. Leader used on Smith.
6) legionary. Leader used on Magellan's Voyage.
7) cavalry. Leader used on Newton's.
8) cavalry. Leader used on Universal Suffrage.

My legionaries have fought approximately 5 offensive battles in that game.

-Arrian

	27-10-2003 20:25									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Grim Legacy Just what I wanted to write- " Then I got three in one turn. " you've got to realize that's impossible unless you manage to create an army/rush building immediately upon getting one.

Actually, they were all killed. It was the AI's turn, and I had foolishly left a bunch of elites alone in the open (as in, they were not stacked together). I lost six or seven elite units, with three of them generating GL's before their demise. It was a sad sight.

	27-10-2003 21:05									#29
	Re: Creating Great Leaders Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by MINNJPN I AM PLAYING CIV 3-STANDARD WORLD-ROAMING BARBS-ON MONARCH FOR THE FIRST TIME--MY QUESTION IS IF ANYONE HAS GONE AS LONG AS 30 ELITE VICTORIES FROM THE START OF THE GAME WITHOUT CREATING ANY GL'S--I AM AT 32 RIGHT NOW--COULD I GET 2 OR 3 IN A ROW?--PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF OTHERS HAVE ENCOUNTERED THIS-THANKS

STOP YELLING!

I can't seem to get GL's either. Try playing a Military civ and use the same Elites in battle over and over again to increase your chances. Try to be at war with one of your neighbors at all times to produce GLs. Dont take on more than you can handle though.

	27-10-2003 21:10									#30
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Thanks for all the info--sometimes randomness just goes against you since I am in the 1600's with more than 50 elite victories, and no GL's--still I with have a domination victory within the next century, it's just a lot easier with a few wonders since I only build them with leaders--