24-10-2003 17:23									#31
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The comrades in France are enjoying what we here in Greeceare only hoping for: a radical revolutionary pole inside the left, which has prevailed over the bankrupt reformist parties of the parliamentary left.

The problem is this doesn't seem to have any effect on the politics of their society, which goes from bad to worse. And they seem unable to surpass the region of 5% and get themselves atop of the fascists.

LePen's party is fascist outright. I remeber once, in 1984, when he visited Athens for a symposium, there were 5000 leftist demonstrators outside of his hotel, throwing rocks at the police that was guarding the place. Such a reception has always been the exclusive priviledge of members ofthe United States government.

	24-10-2003 17:34									#32
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The problem with the radical left is that they can't do anything with their votes. The radical left is of no use within the parliamentary system (it refuses to have power), and half of it isn't really serious about the revolution.

Worse, since the serious revolutionaries, the LO, are trying to get votes during elections, they use a message of protestation and avoid to talk too much about the revolution. It may drain new members in, but it doesn't contribute any significantly to prepare the public opinion to a revolution == their agenda barely goes forward.

That's why I think votes for the radical left are wasted votes, at least currently. Most voters of the radical left expect to be governed by one of the two major parties anyways, and hope to push for a change by yelling, rather than by voting for a party that'll actually defend their interests.

	24-10-2003 17:39									#33
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It is why their candidacy in elections is just intended as a platform. Hopefully some small sway may get them noticed by more people, although I am dubious of this tactic myself. Their best way to canvass support is at the roots in my opinion, the workplace...however groups such as LO are really at the mercy of the disposition of society and the balance of forces...

	24-10-2003 19:48									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor OTOH, Chirac's party (who has swallowed all of the Republican right) displeases more and more. The police minister is less and less successful in shifting the media's attention from the utter amateurishness of this government. Our wonderful cabinet is able to angry everyone: European partners, far right nutjobs, immigrants, workers... Only the police minister seems to please the population, but this popularity fades.

well Le Pen is a disaster, and I dont see why anyone wants to defend him.

and im certainly no fan of Chirac, and can understand anger about handling the heatwave.

BUT - hasnt the govt finally gotten some control over law and order in France, including the wave of antisemitic attacks that the previous socialist govt was ineffective at handling. And as for health insurance, etc isnt it widely agreed that those DO need to be reformed - is the left prepared to do that?

	24-10-2003 19:57									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin The Guardian is such a trash paper filled with useless political hacks who ignore every piece of evidience which controdictes their own bigited political views. Wouldn't it be better to spend your time reading a paper which shows both sides (the New York Times

The NYT on european politics?

	24-10-2003 20:16									#36
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quote: The NYT on european politics?

Well, a rally-the-left article by a Brit paper is a worse source for French politics.

Many europeans seem to have problems giving proper credit to the votes of Europe's right wing. It often reeks of anti-democratic sentiment.

Btw, I agree that Le Pen has precious little in common with the American right wing.

	24-10-2003 20:19									#37
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I'll compare the New York Times journalistic intregity to the Guardian's journalistic integrity (does it have any?) any day of the week.

	24-10-2003 20:23									#38
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Just because the Guardian in contrast to the NYT does not share your jingoistic and rightwing biases does not make it a bad newspaper.

"Well, a rally-the-left article by a Brit paper is a worse source for French politics."

Nope. The NYT is so utterly and totally clueless when it comes to european politics, that no amount of bias in the Guardian could create a worse performance.

"Many europeans seem to have problems giving proper credit to the votes of Europe's right wing."

I don't understand the concept of giving "credit" to votes. Has that something to do with dimpled, hanging and pregnant chads?

	24-10-2003 20:31									#39
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quote: Just because the Guardian in contrast to the NYT does not share your jingoistic and rightwing biases does not make it a bad newspaper.

Rightwing? Jingoistic? What the fvck?

quote: I don't understand the concept of giving "credit" to votes. Has that something to do with dimpled, hanging and pregnant chads?

It's respecting the expressed wishes of those people. If Le Pen wins then the world is not going to end.

	24-10-2003 20:36									#40
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"Rightwing? Jingoistic? What the fvck? "

Rightwing bias or not is a matter of where you stand.

Jingoistic - every US news outlet is ravingly jingoistic, you are just so used to it that you don't even realize it.

"It's respecting the expressed wishes of those people. If Le Pen wins then the world is not going to end."

Yes. And?

	24-10-2003 20:39									#41
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Just because the Guardian in contrast to the NYT does not share your jingoistic and rightwing biases does not make it a bad newspaper.

Jingoistic and rightwing NYT.

this is so good it could be sig material.

	24-10-2003 20:40									#42
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HershoStropler is still angry with the New York Times, the worlds most respecdted Newspaper, because it previously revealed Europe's anti-semitism.

	24-10-2003 20:40									#43
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"this is so good it could be sig material."

That's what I write for.

	24-10-2003 20:43									#44
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Just because the Guardian in contrast to the NYT does not share your jingoistic and rightwing biases does not make it a bad newspaper.

Not at all. As I stated earlier the reason the Guardian is a bad paper is because they are an "activist paper" and their editor has publically admited to this. The Guardian deliberately choices, writes, and presents articles for the express purpose not of presenting the news but to advance a political position. They have been caught on numerous occations ignoring the evidience which doesn't suite their political cause, grossly distorting other evidience, and then taking things which do support their cause entirely out of context.

If a paper cannot be trusted to report the facts with a fair representation of the background context then what good is that paper? It clearly breaks all the basics of journalism which student journalist learn in college. The one thing which seporates a journalist from a propaganda source is that the journalist makes a real attempt at being impartial and just presenting the facts so that readers can draw their own conclusions while a propagandist gives the reader his desired conclusion and only the information which supports his conclusion.

That's why the Guardian is a trash paper and not it doesn't share my "jingoistic and rightwing biases".

	24-10-2003 20:45									#45
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"New York Times, the worlds most respecdted Newspaper"



I love it when threads go really silly.

	24-10-2003 20:46									#46
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Jingoistic - every US news outlet is ravingly jingoistic, you are just so used to it that you don't even realize it.

And I contend that you are so used to reading trash papers like the Guardian which tell you what to think that you have difficulty decerning true journalism.

	24-10-2003 20:47									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Not at all. As I stated earlier the reason the Guardian is a bad paper is because they are an "activist paper" and their editor has publically admited to this. The Guardian deliberately choices, writes, and presents articles for the express purpose not of presenting the news but to advance a political position. They have been caught on numerous occations ignoring the evidience which doesn't suite their political cause, grossly distorting other evidience, and then taking things which do support their cause entirely out of context. If a paper cannot be trusted to report the facts with a fair representation of the background context then what good is that paper? It clearly breaks all the basics of journalism which student journalist learn in college. The one thing which seporates a journalist from a propaganda source is that the journalist makes a real attempt at being impartial and just presenting the facts so that readers can draw their own conclusions while a propagandist gives the reader his desired conclusion and only the information which supports his conclusion. That's why the Guardian is a trash paper and not it doesn't share my "jingoistic and rightwing biases".

Nice try. Want a serious reponse?

	24-10-2003 20:48									#48
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "New York Times, the worlds most respecdted Newspaper" I love it when threads go really silly.

I've shown how the NYT is superior to the Guardian yet you have provided no evidience or reasoning behind your position. If you want to keep bad mouthing the Times then now would be a good time to back up what you are saying.

	24-10-2003 20:49									#49
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Ignore.

	24-10-2003 20:55									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor notice that Chegitz belongs to LO's daughter shop in the US called The Spark[/i

[i]Belonged. I'm in the Socialist Party of the United States these days, even if I'm more politically oriented towards groups like LO and the LCR.

	24-10-2003 20:57									#51
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"I've shown how"

Where? Care to share that?

"If you want to keep bad mouthing the Times then now would be a good time to back up what you are saying."

Shame their archive isn't free. I could for example dig up all Articles about Austria to give you a nice potpourry of lies and halftruths.

	24-10-2003 20:58									#52
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quote: I could for example dig up all Articles about Austria to give you a nice potpourry of lies and halftruths.

Wouldn't that mean that the NYT is left wing and anti-jingoistic?

	24-10-2003 20:58									#53
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Geez - i guess around here being somewhere between the DLC and SDUSA doesnt make me a "man of the left"

	24-10-2003 21:03									#54
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Geez - i guess around here being somewhere between the DLC and SDUSA doesnt make me a "man of the left"

Tell me you aren't in Sedusa!?! That bunch of right-wing racist freaks. Seriously, SDUSA is not considered a leftist organization by anyone on the left.

	24-10-2003 21:03									#55
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Isn't it time for a new Republic? You guys should get working on that.

	24-10-2003 21:11									#56
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Wouldn't that mean that the NYT is left wing and anti-jingoistic?

Every jingoist hates other nations' jingoism.

But left wing... huh?

	24-10-2003 21:26									#57
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What's the point? Are the people that are talking down the Guardian out to defend Front National or is it just that they know to little about Jean-Marie (I love it when fat men are called Marie, that's a girls name only where I come from) Le Pen to actually talk about the issue? No matter the Guardian, there's no problems in digging up enough **** about the Front National and its leader (who have, btw iirc in good old 1930's vintage style named the parties youth movement after himself) for any newspaper.

	24-10-2003 22:09									#58
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark BUT - hasnt the govt finally gotten some control over law and order in France, including the wave of antisemitic attacks that the previous socialist govt was ineffective at handling.

The government is successful in giving the impression that petty criminality recedes. As for antisemitic assaults: whereas they have a strong mediatic impact when they happen, the don't have this much symbolical strength overall. People fear more of being beaten for their cell phone than they fear for Jews to be attacked.
The government is successful in having the scare receded. The actual figures do not recede at all, but it is more important for our Police Minister to show off rather than to have real results.
The internal security issue is in fact the only one which can save the Right from an utter catastrophe. The problem is that the Police Minister is a personal enemy of Chirac (he betrayed him 8 years ago), and Chirac would try not to put him too high in the party.

quote: And as for health insurance, etc isnt it widely agreed that those DO need to be reformed - is the left prepared to do that?

The need for reform is widely understood, even by the Socialistes. But any reform has no chance to be popular, and the reform done by the government clearly sucks for anybody who hasn't enough money to save up for retirement.

	24-10-2003 22:21									#59
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Tell me you aren't in Sedusa!?! That bunch of right-wing racist freaks. Seriously, SDUSA is not considered a leftist organization by anyone on the left.

worse Guevera - im a tad to the right of SDUSA - they're too protectionist for me - DLC on the other hand doesnt take the issue of distributive justice seriously enough. Gore in his 2000 campaign was inching toward the notion of taking distributive justice more seriously without going protectionist. Joe Leiberman, who I otherwise like, was too harsh on Gore post-election about that.

	24-10-2003 22:28									#60
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Ever consider DSA?