24-10-2003 17:03									#1
	reporters sans frontiers Increase the size of your Attachments

has published their list of the most and least free countries, press-wise.

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=8247

suomi-speakers will be happy, finland is ranked 1st, alongside island, nederlands, and that norsk-speaking country.

the american republic and one of its models, the hellenic republic, both are tied at 31.

israel and japan are tied, at 44, and skorea is just a little further behind, at 49. china's abysmally low, at 161.

nkorea is in last place: 166.

	24-10-2003 17:09									#2
	Re: reporters sans frontiers Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed china's abysmally low, at 161. nkorea is in last place: 166.

Wow, not bad. But sadly, a ranking cannot show the qualitative gap between #165 and #166. I mean, in other countries, you can at least travel there.

	24-10-2003 17:12									#3
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Any report which claims America is in the worst 15% of countries with reguards to press freedom is simply a joke.

Reports like this do not use any sort of concrete measuing stick and so just end up being subjective popularity polls. "I like so and so but I don't like these other people" type situations which renders the entire report meaningless.

	24-10-2003 17:14									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Nevermind what I said. Here is #165:

quote: Cuba is in 165th position, second from last. Twenty-six independent journalists were arrested in the spring of 2003 and sentenced to prison terms ranging from 14 to 27 years, making Cuba the world's biggest prison for journalists.

Oerdin:
The US in is the 15% lowest when it comes to its dealing with journalists abroad. It is #31 for its dealings with journalists at home.

	24-10-2003 17:21									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Wow, not bad. But sadly, a ranking cannot show the qualitative gap between #165 and #166. I mean, in other countries, you can at least travel there.

article only refers to freedom of the press.

quote: Any report which claims America is in the worst 15% of countries with reguards to press freedom is simply a joke.

how's the freedom of the press in iraq, i wonder?
if you read again, they have two ratings for both america and israel, one inside their borders and one outside.

indeed, i mention that america itself is 31st.

	24-10-2003 17:21									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It still just boils down to a none scientific popularity contest which has little to no bearing upon reality.

Also I suspect they are taking one very isolated case (Gitmo) and are trying to pretend it is some sort of monsterous act of censorship. The fact that the Geneva and Hague conventions outlaw turning prisoners into public specticals or objects of public curiocity wasn't even taken into account by the writers of this report. That they would drop a country more then 100 places for abiding by international law is a total joke.

	24-10-2003 17:24									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

? i believe they're referring more to things like banning al-jazeera in iraq.

i doubt finland turns prisoners into public spectacles.

	24-10-2003 17:39									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed i doubt finland turns prisoners into public spectacles.

I'm talking about Gitmo not Finland. Many new agencies have complained that they aren't allowed to make the prisoners into public specticals by interviewing them and running nonstop coverage on them.

	24-10-2003 17:44									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'm talking about Gitmo not Finland. Many new agencies have complained that they aren't allowed to make the prisoners into public specticals by interviewing them and running nonstop coverage on them.

This may have to do with the fact that US is called 31st at home. But the 165th position abroad seems to come solely from the US behaviour in the war in Iraq. At least, only Iraq is emphasized to explain the result.

	24-10-2003 17:47									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Since no one is disagreeing that the criteria and ranking is highly subjective and opinionated does that mean you all agree this report just boils down to a popularity contest?

	24-10-2003 17:48									#11
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor This may have to do with the fact that US is called 31st at home. But the 165th position abroad seems to come solely from the US behaviour in the war in Iraq. At least, only Iraq is emphasized to explain the result.

Which does nothing to disprove his point, that these "findings" are nothing more than popularity pieces as to whether you "like" this country more than that one.

	24-10-2003 17:55									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Since no one is disagreeing that the criteria and ranking is highly subjective and opinionated does that mean you all agree this report just boils down to a popularity contest?

A popularity contest whose jury comes from most democratic countries concerned. The ranking was compiled through a questionnaire sent to local journalists or "people with an extensive knowledge of press freedom in that area". There were 53 criteria to determine the final note. Some of these criteria are objective (presence of state monopoly, presence of a regulatory commission, presence of State or non-State pressure groups etc.), some other are subjective.

It is far from being the most scientific accurate study, but it is blatantly false to reduce it to a popularity contest.

	24-10-2003 18:34									#13
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor It is far from being the most scientific accurate study, but it is blatantly false to reduce it to a popularity contest.

That remains to be seen. We'd have to look at the questinaire because there are a million things which could be wrong or right about it. Also I'd very much like to know the ratio of objective criteria (I.E. how many reporters were imprisoned compared to the total number of reporters; this is a hard number) verse subjective (how do you feel about country X?) criteria. If there are few objective and tons of subjective criteria then I would say it was a popularity contest.

	24-10-2003 19:04									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

This study is obviously flawed since US is not #1

	24-10-2003 20:55									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: how's the freedom of the press in iraq, i wonder?

Pretty good, nowadays. Apparently, they dinged us for accidentally shooting two journalists.

I guess the one was where the tank shot at the hotel where the journalists were staying and where our boys thought reporters were being held hostage. The other one was the al Jazeera reporter who got a cruise missile planted in his office. Of course, they don't mention that the war and its aftermath have been covered by many thousands of journalists.

	24-10-2003 21:23									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by DanS Apparently, they dinged us for accidentally shooting two journalists.

Outside the U.S., few assume they were shot accidentally.

The raitings may also take into consideration that most non-US journalists consider American journalism to be an oxymoron.

	24-10-2003 21:30									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Che: That leads back to my point about the popularity contest.

	24-10-2003 21:35									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Obivously such a ranking is quite subjective and cannot be used as anything other than a rough indicator. The figures gives rankings a false glance of objectivity (for some reason people think numbers are true no matter how they came up with them.)


It would however, be very interesting to create an alternative universe where the US was number one and watch oerdins reactions.

	24-10-2003 21:38									#19
	Put an end to popups!

I'd still say it was a subjective popularity contest because that's what I do with each of these "reports" comes out.

	24-10-2003 21:47									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Che: That leads back to my point about the popularity contest.

Why? If they seriousy consider American journalism to be a joke, what does that have to do with popularity? They may think we're great, just not serious jounalists.

	24-10-2003 22:17									#21
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: They may think we're great

I assure you, Americans are the only ones who think that

	24-10-2003 22:46									#22
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Costa Rica better placed than the United States The poor ranking of the United States (17th) is mainly because of the number of journalists arrested or imprisoned there. Arrests are often because they refuse to reveal their sources in court. Also, since the 11 September attacks, several journalists have been arrested for crossing security lines at some official buildings.

From 2002 Ranking
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=4116

	24-10-2003 23:05									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

you gotta admire consistency. nkorea ranked last last year, too.

	24-10-2003 23:07									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Australia is #50. what's up with that?

	25-10-2003 00:08									#25
	Increase Your PM Length

What's really disturbing to me is that the US is ranked below the UK. I like to think I'm an honorary Eurocom, but I'm also a media professor -- and the UK's libel laws, which massively favor plaintiffs bringing libel suits, are a far more significant restraint on freedom of speech than anything we have in the US.

	25-10-2003 03:09									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I think we should take all the INdy media types and make them wait tables at that commie pklace uin Chincagol

	25-10-2003 03:19									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by TCO I think we should take all the INdy media types and make them wait tables at that commie pklace uin Chincagol

What?!? Then your dad might lose his job to one of those indy media types!!

	25-10-2003 03:38									#28
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin It still just boils down to a none scientific popularity contest which has little to no bearing upon reality. Also I suspect they are taking one very isolated case (Gitmo) and are trying to pretend it is some sort of monsterous act of censorship. The fact that the Geneva and Hague conventions outlaw turning prisoners into public specticals or objects of public curiocity wasn't even taken into account by the writers of this report. That they would drop a country more then 100 places for abiding by international law is a total joke.

Actually, I didn't see any reference to Gitmo. More to things like regulating foreign journalists in occupied Iraq, and a little whinyness about the guys dumb enough to point video cams at tanks during the war.

	25-10-2003 03:40									#29
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly What's really disturbing to me is that the US is ranked below the UK. I like to think I'm an honorary Eurocom, but I'm also a media professor -- and the UK's libel laws, which massively favor plaintiffs bringing libel suits, are a far more significant restraint on freedom of speech than anything we have in the US.

US libel laws favor rich plaintiffs, and especially disfavor poor defendants, due to the ridiculous costs of litigation here. It doesn't matter if you're right - it matters if you can afford to go to trial.

	25-10-2003 04:10									#30
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by st_swithin What?!? Then your dad might lose his job to one of those indy media types!!

My dad died in 1985, b1tch.