30-10-2003 09:46									#1
	Upcoming AU Course Support Apolyton

Ok I already have an idea for the first AU course that involves Conquests. It won't be like other AU courses because there will be no specific goal. It will just be the best way to play one of the Conquests. Now this thread is to discuss what civilization to play and what Conquest.

	30-10-2003 11:31									#2
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Dutch. Both new traits (agricultural + seafaring) and a 1.4.1 pikeman, friggin' unbelievable. Random game, no conquest scenario.

	30-10-2003 15:46									#3
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yay! The Dutchies will rule like they once did!
Only they won't be a commercial power in this game
(how can Holland be a civ without a commercial trait?? Just unbelievable )

	30-10-2003 18:41									#4
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Getverdemme..

I absolutely refuse to play as the Dutch, dammit
-
Sounds like a good game, you can (probably) count me in.

	30-10-2003 19:44									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Dutch. Both new traits (agricultural + seafaring) and a 1.4.1 pikeman, friggin' unbelievable. Random game, no conquest scenario.

How can anyone match this 1.4.1 pikeman? It might be a better UU than Sipahi.

	30-10-2003 20:04									#6
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In its time it is something like an equivalent to the Hoplite. The hoplite is a 3-defender in a time, where the best attack is also 3 (save the Immortal), while the Swiss mercenary is a 4-defender in a time, when the best attack is also 4. Not overpowered, methinks.

	30-10-2003 20:05									#7
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It strikes me, in considering the Dutch traits and UU combination, that they are reallly being set up to be as they historically were - a tiny nation with vast overseas holdings.

Of course, this will only really work out if the program starts placing player/AI start locations closer together on more limited land, to recreate that European experience of HAVING to expand overseas.

The 1.4.1 will allow the Dutch to defend themselves from the nearby Germans, Spanish, French and English while being able to go seize the Congo etc. in the meantime.

Of course, the revamped Vikings may give the Dutch a run for their money...

It makes me upset that the French will probably not be considered Seafaring. Some of the trait reassignments look really stupid... but this is a topic for another thread.

	30-10-2003 20:50									#8
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quote: It makes me upset that the French will probably not be considered Seafaring.

The French? Seafaring?

Anyway, regarding the Dutch UU, in SP I don't think any defensive UU can match the top offensive UUs. In MP, it's another story altogether.

-Arrian

	30-10-2003 20:51									#9
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I would like the first AU course to be an epic (random) game, just to try out all the new stuff. In fact, I think it would be a good idea to do:

"The Power of Seafaring"
"The Power of Agricultural"

After that, I agree with Nuclear Master that it would be great fun to proceed to one of the Conquests. This would be an esoteric departure from standard AU, but it's not going to be esoteric for long when everyone realizes how fun the Conquest scenarios really are.


Dominae

	30-10-2003 21:16									#10
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I will respect peoples decision here. We already have some new course ideas. Let's do the power of Seafaring first. Choose a civ.

	30-10-2003 21:22									#11
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Byzantines!

... or Portugal. If we're doing Seafaring, I'd like to include a naval UU.

	30-10-2003 21:25									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian The French? Seafaring?

One of the premiere "Seafaring" civilizations of history! The French empire rivalled the English and Spanish empires, and far surpassed the Dutch. The French possed "Lousianna," a fairly massive colonial holding, as well as Quebec, most of West Africa, possessions in South America and the Pacific Islands, and holdings in India for a long time. They surpassed the Portugese and Dutch period... as the years went by, their overseas holdings also surpassed the Spanish... only the English always had the upper hand over the French.

The French Admiral deGrasse administered the famous "coup" that bears his name at sea, after all.

Now, perhaps the Byzantines, who controlled the Eastern Meditterrean and Black Sea - whoop di doo - could be industrious, and the French could be seafaring. Or perhaps the Byzantines could be taken out of the game entirely and replaced with a more unique civilization - but I'm getting way OT.

Point is, the French traits are appropriate, but Seafaring would be just as appropriate as Industrious, and historically, the French were every bit as Seafaring as the Portugese, Spanish, Dutch and English.

On the other hand, the Chinese have a ocean-worthy fleet in 1421... there's only so many traits a civilization can have.

	30-10-2003 21:36									#13
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Yahweh Sabaoth could we stray back on topic?

	30-10-2003 22:01									#14
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"Power of Seafaring" should probably be the English, then, don't you think?

-Arrian

	30-10-2003 22:04									#15
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Byzantines. Sooo fun.

	30-10-2003 22:14									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian "Power of Seafaring" should probably be the English, then, don't you think?

It would be fun to try out new stuff in C3C (like UUs), no?

Plus, as I recall, the "Island Hopping" AU used the English.


Dominae

	30-10-2003 22:27									#17
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I have not done any reading about the new unit/civs or traits. So I have little to offer, until get the game. It all sounds like fun and I have faith in community to get something good put together.

	30-10-2003 22:27									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master Yahweh Sabaoth could we stray back on topic?

Yes, so sorry. I tend to get a bit pissy this time of the morning. Excuse me.

	30-10-2003 22:29									#19
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Maybe - just maybe - y'all should consider modding the French to seafaring for this AU course. Although, this'll probably be the case in the Age of Discovery scenario.

	30-10-2003 22:35									#20
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I would like to have the next course similar to what Dom suggested...a "power of" with one of the new traits, new civs, and new UUs. The last several AU courses have all been "specialized" to some extent (total war, humongous map, no golden age, modified succession, and UN peacekeepers). A "standard" AU game with new Conquests stuff is just what the doctor ordered.

	30-10-2003 22:39									#21
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Since none of the new stuff will be new to me, I offer to set up the map. Nothing too crazy, I promise!


Dominae

	30-10-2003 23:08									#22
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If I get time to play, I'd vote for a random game with one of the new civs - preferably trying out one or both of the the new seafaring & agricultural traits.

Catt

	30-10-2003 23:16									#23
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Uh oh! Alert! Dominae setting up the map! Horses and iron available only after Navigation.

	30-10-2003 23:19									#24
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quote: The 1.4.1 will allow the Dutch to defend themselves from the nearby Germans, Spanish, French and English while being able to go seize the Congo etc. in the meantime.

Well, actually the Congo never was ours. You have to look at Alva for that one...

	30-10-2003 23:21									#25
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Couple of thoughts:

1) YS: not much point in modding the game just so we can use the French. I'd also like to try out one of the new civs.

2) Agree with Rhothaerill that a standard game might be perfect as an intro to Conquests.

3) Dom: Thanks for volunteering to set up the map. I'll believe your claim of "nothing too crazy" when I see it!!

	30-10-2003 23:28									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Well, actually the Congo never was ours. You have to look at Alva for that one...

Excuse me, you're quite right. I feel like a total fool.

Hey... why didn't BELGIUM make the game?

Aaaagh, sorry, OT again.

	30-10-2003 23:43									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Since none of the new stuff will be new to me, I offer to set up the map. Nothing too crazy, I promise! Dominae

Yeah, right!



-Arrian

	31-10-2003 05:44									#28
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So Byzantines then? Dominae if your going to set up this AU course could I tell you some things I want to implement in it?

	31-10-2003 07:04									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master I will respect peoples decision here. We already have some new course ideas. Let's do the power of Seafaring first. Choose a civ.

for the first course we could just combine "the power of seafaring" and "the power of agriculture" by just being the dutch in an epic game.

	31-10-2003 08:09									#30
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But it's not really what the AU is about. We can't combine the two lessons together.