30-10-2003 22:35									#1
	Why the Dems are barking up the wrong tree. Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3227665.stm

There seems to be two points which all of the Democratic candidates running for President seem to be focusing on 1) Bush lied about Iraq & isn't doing a good job supervising the occupation, and 2) He's done a poor job managing the nation's economy. I'd say both are true but #1 doesn't seem to get any traction with voters and it ends up making the Dems look whiners who have nothing positive to add. Seven of the candidates basically say they'd do the same thing which Bush is currently doing (i.e. stay the course and work towards building a democratic western leaning Iraq) with the others say we should drop everything and run. Polls show most Americas think Iraq will become an even bigger problem if the US doesn't try to finish what it started and the seven who agree with Bush aren't going to win votes by claiming to be proto-Bushes.

So far the only issue which has been gaining traction is the economic issue. Unfortunately, the economy is now coming around with unexpected strength and though none of it has to do with Bush's tax cuts (since most of his tax cuts haven't even occured yet) there is no doubt Bush will get up and try to claim he's policy is what fixed the economy (instead of end of an economic cycle which most economist say is responsible for the cyclical upswing).

So here's the question: If you were a candidate which issues would you highlight and who would you show that you are better and have a different vision then Bush? I really do think Bush's tax and spend policies and sky high debts are truly bad for our country but I believe the American voter is to stupid to care about such unexciting things as the national debt, bad tax policies, or over commitment of military forces. How do you get voters attention?

	30-10-2003 22:38									#2
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It's the economy, stupid.


Criticism of the Iraq policy should really be minimized until you at least have a decisive front-runner, and see how mired in the shithole we still are when the election is coming around.

	30-10-2003 22:47									#3
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Shouldn't the Dems blame Bush for the deficit spending, and for all the social ills that befell on the US (sucky public education, no welfare, corporate corruption etc.) ?

	30-10-2003 22:47									#4
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In most current polls I've read, the handling of the situation in Iraq is hurting the Prez.

We reached a new milestone yesterday. More soldiers killed since the end of major combat than during.

Plus, are we likely to see three million new jobs created in the next year? That's just to get us back to what we had before he took office. That doesn't take into account population growth.

	30-10-2003 22:51									#5
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Interesting factoid I read in Jon Coneson's Big Lies today. In 1994, when the Dum's controlled Congress and the White House, the average Dum controled district had $35 million more in pork projects than the average Repug district. Today, the average Repug district has $612 million more in pork projects than the average Dum district. Fiscal responsibility my ass.

Since 1995, when the Repugs took control, discretionary spending has rising more than 50% and the number of pork projects has risen by thousands (total 8,300 as of this year)!

	30-10-2003 22:52									#6
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Public education shouldn't be a Federal issue at all (I'm to the right of both parties on that one, although Reagan at least gave lip service to dissolving the Department of Education)

Welfare is among the most obscene words in the American political vocabulary, especially when uttered by a Dem.

Corporate corruption (the Enrondotcom fraud bubbles unfortunately have their roots in the "economic growth" of the Clinton administration.

Basically, deficits and unemployment are it until we get close enough to the election for meaningful criticism on Iraq.

	30-10-2003 22:52									#7
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quote: If you were a candidate which issues would you highlight and who would you show that you are better and have a different vision then Bush?

I would hit him on health care. The prescription drug benefit for medicare that was promised is not going to materialize. Further, the prices for health care have risen strongly.

I might try to wrap some of the state problems around the neck of the prez (even though I realize that this is totally unfair). Tuition is rising at a very fast clip.

	30-10-2003 22:54									#8
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Interesting factoid I read in Jon Coneson's Big Lies today. In 1994, when the Dum's controlled Congress and the White House, the average Dum controled district had $35 million more in pork projects than the average Repug district. Today, the average Repug district has $612 million more in pork projects than the average Dum district. Fiscal responsibility my ass. Since 1995, when the Repugs took control, discretionary spending has rising more than 50% and the number of pork projects has risen by thousands (total 8,300 as of this year)!

Of course, this all depends on how you define "pork projects" Both sides play that game to the hilt, and projects in my district are "essential to our national ___________" while projects in your district are pork.

	30-10-2003 22:55									#9
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Corporate corruption (the Enrondotcom fraud bubbles unfortunately have their roots in the "economic growth" of the Clinton administration.

Actually, they have their roots in the deregulation of the 1980s. Bush pulled the same stuff at Harken that Enron and all the rest got in trouble for much later. It's just that the Clinton Admin didn't do much about it, and once the Repugs took over, wasn't in a position to do anything about it. Not that this let's the Dums off the hook, since they passed the bills that Reagan and Bush wanted in the first place.

	30-10-2003 22:56									#10
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The thing is voters have a memory that goes about 2-3 months back. If Joe 6-pack has a job when election time rolls around and if he picks up a paper where the reporter tells him everything is fine then Joe will think everything is fine.

The Dems need to stop whining about abstract and far away issues like Iraq (even if they are true) because they won't get any where with them. Instead show how Bush's policies have directly made life worse for the average man. Also don't just aim for the democratic base; expand it outward and get the Republican base and moderates pissed off with Bush as well. Show the Republican voters how Bush has created the largest increases in big government since Johnson & show how he's rolled back free trade and slapped tarrifs & subsidies on all sorts of things and flip flopped on issue after issue because he's a corrupt man that will do anything he's paid to do. The Repubs said they had Clinton because he flip flopped and because he took a poll before doing anything. Bush is doing that even more then Clinton did so maybe that will alienate some of Bush's base.

	30-10-2003 22:56									#11
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I don't think the corporate corruption dog will hunt. Bush could turn that around and play the "I was tough on the corruption that was endemic during my predecessor's time" bit.

Deficits are a big issue, but I don't think they'll be as big as the dems hope. The FY '03 deficit was $75 billion less than feared. The FY '04 deficit will be big, but probably not as big as feared a couple of months ago.

	30-10-2003 22:57									#12
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The people who went bankrupt and lost their homes and were out of work for years at a time aren't likey to forget, Oerdin.

	30-10-2003 22:58									#13
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quote: The thing is voters have a memory that goes about 2-3 months back. If Joe 6-pack has a job when election time rolls around and if he picks up a paper where the reporter tells him everything is fine then Joe will think everything is fine.

You need to trust the voters more.

quote: and were out of work for years at a time

Do you like to mull over personal bad times? I sure don't.

	30-10-2003 22:59									#14
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No... they won't. But people who have since gotten jobs will know the economy is getting better, and is headed in the right direction

	30-10-2003 22:59									#15
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The people who went bankrupt and lost their homes and were out of work for years at a time aren't likey to forget, Oerdin.

'

I don't want to sound ungrateful, but they make a small minority of voters.

	30-10-2003 23:01									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Also don't just aim for the democratic base; expand it outward and get the Republican base and moderates pissed off with Bush as well.

This is the thing that has cost the Dum's so much support over the past decades. By taking their base for granted, more and more of their base has stopped voting or abandoned them for Greener pastures. You have to take care of your base, first and foremost. That's what the Repugs do. If your foundation is sand, you can't have a tent that's all inclusive.


What pisses me off about the yellow stripers (moderates) is they ignore Repug nastiness but get all sanctimonious when the Dem's start to fight back.

	30-10-2003 23:02									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I don't want to sound ungrateful, but they make a small minority of voters.

In case you forgot about the last election, a small minority of voters is all it takes.

	30-10-2003 23:03									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ming No... they won't. But people who have since gotten jobs will know the economy is getting better, and is headed in the right direction

Depends on the job, don'it? Dotcommers working for the Circle K may not be so understanding.

	30-10-2003 23:05									#19
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yeah... let's blame Bush for the collapse of the Dotcommers...

HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA

As I know personally, and what I'm hearing from other people/friends... many of us are back to work again in positions better than we left

	30-10-2003 23:07									#20
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara In case you forgot about the last election, a small minority of voters is all it takes.

Quotable material from a commie.

Actually no, the majority will speak.

	30-10-2003 23:07									#21
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Edit: nm

	30-10-2003 23:11									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Actually no, the majority will speak.

And last time the majority voted for Gore, for all the good it did them.

Ming, I'm not blaiming Bush for the fall of the dot.com bubble. But a lot of people do, cuz that's when their unemployment and severance began running out, and they couldn't easily find a job. Let's face it, most people are kinda ignorant.

Bush, however, did make things worse with his talking down the economy and his deficit-exploding tax cuts for the rich.

	30-10-2003 23:12									#23
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Question for the day: Which President asked for and recieved the largest tax increase in history?

	30-10-2003 23:15									#24
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara And last time the majority voted for Gore, for all the good it did them.

I meant the majority of the electorate. This isn't a direct democracy, but a republic. Of course commies hate both.

quote: Bush, however, did make things worse with his talking down the economy and his deficit-exploding tax cuts for the rich.

No. Then what the hell is this GDP growth?

	30-10-2003 23:17									#25
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Actually, they have their roots in the deregulation of the 1980s. Bush pulled the same stuff at Harken that Enron and all the rest got in trouble for much later. It's just that the Clinton Admin didn't do much about it, and once the Repugs took over, wasn't in a position to do anything about it. Not that this let's the Dums off the hook, since they passed the bills that Reagan and Bush wanted in the first place.

If you want to blame gas deregulation, first, you'll have to send every natural gas customer in the US bills for more than twenty billion and explain to them that natural gas prices are now going up 60% and will be locked in at that level to undo the "mistake" of deregulaton. I'm sure that will go over well.

Then please explain how "deregulation" of natural gas purchasing created the mechanism for a "pipeline" company (whose core business is still regulated" to go into all sorts of non-gas ventures (buying utilities, attempting to corner the marker on LM6000 turbines, etc.) by making hidden arms-length transactions with undisclosed offshore affiliates?

Enron never did this stuff before, because the old management never was interested in moving out of their regulated monopoly field of being a pipeline company.

Perhaps we should have had a regulated internet, with service limited to 56k dialup for a nationwide standard price of $45.00 per month? That would have stopped that dot com nonsense.

We already have laws against securities fraud. Deregulation (in any field) has not ever given a waiver to criminal activity, so you're gonna have to try again.

	30-10-2003 23:20									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Fez No. Then what the hell is this GDP growth?

A one quarter fluke, which may be "adjusted" a few months from now (as quarterly results often are).

Oh, and BTW, your buddy Keynes long ago explained how deficit spending can "prime the pump" You got half a trillion dollars in new Federal debt to spend your life paying off, Fezzie, so you better damn well hope for something better than one quarter's reported growth.

	30-10-2003 23:20									#27
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Depends on the job, don'it? Dotcommers working for the Circle K may not be so understanding.

Admit it, you were disgruntled with the system before you took that job.

	30-10-2003 23:22									#28
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat A one quarter fluke, which may be "adjusted" a few months from now (as quarterly results often are).

Flaky answer at best.

quote: Oh, and BTW, your buddy Keynes long ago explained how deficit spending can "prime the pump" You got half a trillion dollars in new Federal debt to spend your life paying off, Fezzie, so you better damn well hope for something better than one quarter's reported growth.

Running a deficit is not a bad thing if it is offsetted by growth, dingbat.

	30-10-2003 23:30									#29
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I must admit I love this debate where conservatives support a keynesian policy, and where pro-Dems support a liberal policy

If it wasn't for the fascism on social issues, I'd be a Republican already

	30-10-2003 23:30									#30
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"dingbat"

Boy, you sure got him with the crushing grip of irreducible reason there, Fez. How can he possibly hope to argue his way out of your logical trap?